jediwands

This is one of my favorite episodes of the series. This episode was written by Mike White & Greg Berlanti. Berlanti understood the DJ dynamic. Berlanti, I truly believed learned so much from DJ and that is why his Ephram/Amy on Everwood were so beautifully constructed. I will always believe this. I will forever be pissed off that Dawson's Creek ended in horrible fashion but at least Berlanti took what he learned and made his own show, Everwood, the best version imaginable. Very happy about this fact.

I also loved how they both were worried that they fooled around with Jack and Jen. Once again, you see how so NOT over each other they truly were. The rain scene was beautiful. They had a few gorgeous rain scenes actually, this one and when they were kissing earlier in the season when they first got together.

Pacey/Andie gave me goosebumps. I loved the emotional honesty Pacey displayed. Pacey never opened up to anyone else in his entire life before this time period. He went there with Andie because he loved her and knew she was the real deal. He understood what was going on between them and he didn't want to mess it up for even a second. They were so perfect for each other.

jediwands

This is a prime example of why the series finale was bunk. There is pretty much proof that when Kevin changed the ending to PJ he basically just changed it at the last second but all the things Joey said, all of her words were for Dawson. It makes sense because the only person Joey EVER ran from was Dawson. Her love for him, their love for each other was so lingering and intense it scared her. That's why she broke up with him in season 2, it's why she continued to run from him as well. She was scared of the realness. When Dawson gave any indication he wanted to move on she freaked out because it forced her to see that she had to stop running or else she would lose him.

jediwands

That is how I watch this time period. I wait for prom, I cling to prom since it means the end of horrible PJ. Before this time, you said it, it's fighting like crazy, never solving anything, Pacey's insecurities while knowing Joey isn't over Dawson, Joey's obvious jealousy of Dawson and Gretchen. Nothing remotely good was happening between PJ. That is why at times I almost feel sorry for people who shipped this pairing because these moments were horrendous and if they found this pairing beautiful, I don't know, I just wonder what they are thinking. LOL If I shipped this pairing, I would be so disappointed and miserable. There is nothing to embrace! Seriously, it's all horrendous.

jediwands

I bet if we tallied the fights, we would need to keep a pencil sharper close by because we'd be constantly writing.

Forwood4Bamon

and someone says to me I ignored what happened on the show, then what exactly was PJ doing in season 4 hmmm? and said DJ fought, then what did PJ do? talking? I was watching some pacey/audrey in season 6, even though they were starting to get ruined too, its' still better than PJ.

jediwands

I think the way DJ fought compared to PJ was entirely different.

With DJ, they fought because they were constantly questioning the definition of their dynamic. They wanted to be together romantically, they had this soulmate-like connection, they couldn't leave it and not for a lack of trying. They tried to move on with other people many times but it never worked out because it always came back to them.

So DJ were fighting to be together essentially.

Wit PJ, they were fighting because deep down they knew they were a horrible mess romantically the second they went sailing. Pacey's self esteem was gone, his future outlook was negative and dark, he didn't even know if he was going to graduate, and he knew Joey still loved Dawson and fought this over and over again. Joey tried to basically take in Pacey as her boy toy who looked pretty next to her. She never tried to help Pacey, she just felt comfortable around him because they had become good friends when she was aching big time over Dawson. They never balanced each other out, they were all over the place with each other.

So PJ were fighting to break free from each other romantically... it finally happened at the prom, then in season 6 when Joey still rejected him, and in the series finale when Joey was still, no doubt, all about Dawson. I still can't imagine what kind of life they had in NYC together. I bet Pacey went back home to Capeside as much as possible while Joey had a successful job spending her nights calling Dawson.

I liked Pacey/Audrey too but knew the writing was on the wall with them... Audrey would never be able to go anywhere near Joey as far as class/status so of course they turned her into a crazy drunk. Audrey was basically Andie 2.0. There was major potential for Pacey/Audrey and TPTB ruined it. Still wanted Pacey/Andie, always wanted Pacey/Andie but if not Andie, I would have been okay with Audrey.

Don't even get me started on how poorly this show handled mental illness by the way. As a psychologist, I could have nightmares just thinking about it.

Forwood4Bamon

yeah andie cheated and dawson sucked are not good enough arguments anymore. They really arent. Joey emotionally cheated on pacey. and pacey goes off on audie about cheating?! How dare he? He did the same thing with audrey. he fought to get both andie and audrey back, never saw this with joey. and how dare pacey bark at gretchen about dating dawson? Dawson happened to be minding his own business in season 4. He grew up so much from season 3. the picture of pj he gave joey. I loved that ep that he accepted them dating. But its interesting that the djers say one thing, but why is it different than the pjers? Joey is the djers favorite character, but also the pjers.

jediwands

Those are the only comments that are made... Andie cheated and Dawson sucked, that's all they've got. Those arguments are ridiculous. First of all, Andie was mentally ill at the time and the real Pacey would have forgiven her. Instead, TPTB made fun of mental health and made Andie out to being a demon in order to create Pacey/Joey. They even had Andie claim she was raped. They did this to destroy Andie (while completely making fun of mental health which I will never get over) so it would seem realistic in their eyes that Pacey could forget about Andie and turn to Joey. It was all bunk and utterly ridiculous. Dawson, they needed to use as well. Pacey was completely out of character not forgiving Andie given the circumstances. This was not a happy and healthy Andie who messed up with the cheating, this was an Andie who was fragile and trying to get better. The real Pacey would have been heartbroken but understood the circumstances and eventually forgiven her. They would have worked it out. Instead, they had Pacey go all out of character and like you said he later cheated too. Not only that... yes, Joey was emotionally cheating on him the entire time they were together because she still was in love with Dawson. Pacey was okay with Joey emotionally cheating (and everyone knows emotional cheating is even worse because it's deeper, more meaningful) while his life was circling the drain.

All of it is ridiculous. Dawson completely grew up in season 4 while Pacey went back several steps. There is speculation that James went to the showrunner and asked that Dawson be written better in season 4. Even James knew how stupidly they wrote Dawson at the end of season 3 and he was fed up. TPTB had to destroy all of seasons 1/2 in order to create Pacey/Joey. What a joke.

rossfangirl86

Wow, a lot to catch up on.

Going to post my thoughts about DJo after watching "To Be or Not to Be" last week.

Now to catch up.

ETA:

I think that was actually part of her finding herself, dating someone besides Dawson. Part of her was always going to wonder what it'd be like to be with someone else. Dawson already knew but she didn't really date anyone else prior to Dawson. That one date with Anderson doesn't count. I think she was also just scared of how intense her feelings for Dawson were. I can't imagine what it'd be like to be with your "forever" person at 15. I think that's why she initially ran from him and why she kept running. I think it was easy with Jack. They had things in common and he was interested in her. So she took a leap but couldn't quite let go of her feelings for Dawson. Which she knew wouldn't happen anyway, that was established and acknowledged several times in s2. I don't think Jack/Joey diminished Dawson/Joey in any way. Everyone involved knew that she'd end up with Dawson again, it was just a matter of time.

I think this episode definitely opened the door to DJo's reconciliation a few episodes later. It was never a question of if they'd get back together, it was a question of when. This had been building for a few episodes so they were bound to blow up at each other eventually. I found the episodes where Dawson was hanging with Jen frustrating since he was acting like someone else just to please her. I think Dawson needs Joey in his life as much as she needs him. They help each other stay true to themselves.

Admittedly, I'm not the biggest Pacey fan in the world but it was different in s2. He matured and became more serious without losing his sense of humor. But with Andie, he saw something precious in her and he knew he'd be foolish not to hold onto that. And as Andie fell for him, so did I. I started to see what she saw and he blossomed as a character. It was so sad to see him fall so far after their breakup. Where did that loving, sensitive, confident guy go?

Yeah, Joey never ran from Pacey so I don't get why they couldn't at least change the dialogue if they wanted a PJo ending. We saw Joey run from Dawson, in one way or another, every season. But she always came back because it was Dawson.

As far as fighting goes, every couple on this show fought. Joey was fairly defensive and fought with all the guys she dated. It's just what she fought with the guys about that made the difference. With Dawson, she was usually fighting herself, as she admitted in s2.

Xelphia Kenny

Forwood4Bamon

I love your icon and those gifs. and how dare PJ bark at gretchen for dating dawson?

jediwands

I completely agree. Plus, since Jack was gay, it was very obvious both Joey and Jack knew they were temporary which is precisely why they were drawn to each other. They might not have realized it, but they were "safe" for each other. I even liked the potential of Dawson/Jen. Jen was not like anyone he had ever known and I think their interaction should have been a good thing. In looking back, I disliked how desperate they made Jen look though since he clearly wasn't over Joey (and Dawson acted off too) so I wish they were constructed a different way. But Jen and Jack should have been nice stepping stones for DJ.

So yes, I was actually happy Joey dated someone else then because you're right, it was scary and her feelings for Dawson were so intense. She needed to be ready. That's why she told Dawson they were the future, nothing was changing between them. More time was all that was needed.

While I LOVED how they reunited at the end of season 2, a part of me wishes they would have stayed apart and then gotten back together for good at the end of season 3. Instead, we received a quick reunion, followed by a lame way to break them up (her dad) and then the stupid PL crap. I read that the intention was to put DJ and PA back together at the end of season 3. Of course things didn't go as planned.

I've always given for an answer when people ask me why I loved Dawson/Joey so much... they balance each other out. Dawson was a dreamer and while that dreamer side allowed his creativity to come alive, he needed someone to bring him down to earth at times too and that was Joey effortlessly. Dawson represented a support system for Joey when she didn't have a lot of that given her mother's death and her father's drug addiction/jail time. He also allowed her to see the world in a hopeful way. Joey was a pretty glass is half empty kind of girl but Dawson allowed her to see that glass as half full as well.

They perfectly balanced each other out. They were so meant to be.

Now let's ask why Pacey and Joey should have been together... hmmm... hmmm... hmmm.

There's no valid reason. Not when we have a lengthy list of reasons why they were a disaster together!

Totally agree. He completely changed after Andie and not in a good way. I could have punched him when he manipulated the situation at Dawson's aunt's in order to get closer to Joey behind Dawson's back. Or basically having no guilt over rejecting Andie in such a delicate state. How he could have gone behind Dawson's back in the first place knowing he was falling for Joey is beyond me. Friends don't do that to friends! Dawson, honestly, should have dumped his rear after that. In the real world Dawson punches him in the face, calls him every name in the book and never speaks to him again. Pacey deserved that kind of treatment.

Exactly. That's why the PJ ending is a joke. None of the dialogue fit. They received a tacked on ending.

Yes, the way Joey fought with others was different than with Dawson. Everything was always different with Dawson.

jediwands

jediwands

Interesting read: TV for one and all: Random Rant- Why I hate Pacey Witter

Forwood4Bamon

yeah but dont worry dawson sucks. He was always blamed for their fights.