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Old 02-21-2021, 08:49 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Auror (View Post)
Wow. That promo was definitely putting a fork in them. They were done before this but the promo really hits this point home.

What is also never really talked about is how insanely reckless and stupid Pacey is to go there again with Joey. He knew Dawson and Joey continued to dance around each other from Coda to the present. He attended a dinner showing Joey devastated over seeing Dawson/Jen. Like... is Pacey stupid? How did it not register with him that Joey still wanted Dawson? He had to have known Dawson and Joey slept together fairly recently yet still goes for it with Joey once again. Did he not care he’d have to face Dawson again should Joey have been up for another unhealthy relationship? Gets rejected for Eddie (ouch) then Pacey proceeds to screw Dawson and lose all of his money. What more could he have done to Dawson?!

The Pacey love that still exists on Twitter is a joke. People literally forget all of this due to a past/present crush on Josh and/or Dawson hate. Incredible.
Sounds to me like he is ok with being the sloppy second any time Joey finishes up with Dawson. It's quite sad for him. Albeit, Dawson was indeed still going after Joey after she was with Pacey but I think their reunion at the end of season 4 was more initiated by Joey anyway. The subsequent times DJ were on and off in the later seasons never had anything to do with Pacey anyway whereas whenever PJ got together, it was pretty much always shortly after something was going on between DJ.

So really, Joey turns out to be the smart one here. She managed to string them both along for so many years and in the end, she gets to keep the best of both worlds. In a real life situation, it is unrealistic. In a fictional tv show setting, they made it seem realistic by portraying that Joey was genuinely loved both and because of this she needs both in her life. Lol. I think Joey was quite clever in that she was able to manipulate the situation into having both men in her life. If she ended up with Dawson, she probably would've never seen Pacey again. If she ended with Pacey, she knew and we all knew that Dawson would still be at her beck and call. So by picking Pacey she get's both of them whereas by picking Dawson she only gets one and of course that's not enough . So Joey gets everything whilst Pacey and Dawson look like the biggest lap dog losers.
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Old 02-22-2021, 06:43 AM
  #107
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Sounds to me like he is ok with being the sloppy second any time Joey finishes up with Dawson. It's quite sad for him. Albeit, Dawson was indeed still going after Joey after she was with Pacey but I think their reunion at the end of season 4 was more initiated by Joey anyway. The subsequent times DJ were on and off in the later seasons never had anything to do with Pacey anyway whereas whenever PJ got together, it was pretty much always shortly after something was going on between DJ.

So really, Joey turns out to be the smart one here. She managed to string them both along for so many years and in the end, she gets to keep the best of both worlds. In a real life situation, it is unrealistic. In a fictional tv show setting, they made it seem realistic by portraying that Joey was genuinely loved both and because of this she needs both in her life. Lol. I think Joey was quite clever in that she was able to manipulate the situation into having both men in her life. If she ended up with Dawson, she probably would've never seen Pacey again. If she ended with Pacey, she knew and we all knew that Dawson would still be at her beck and call. So by picking Pacey she get's both of them whereas by picking Dawson she only gets one and of course that's not enough . So Joey gets everything whilst Pacey and Dawson look like the biggest lap dog losers.
Excellent points. Someone on the recap site Television Without Pity said this about Joey in her recap of the Series Finale:

Quote:
“My God, that woman's amazing,” Pacey muses. All right…seriously? What's so amazing about her? She's not particularly smart, she's not particularly funny -- she's not particularly anything, except pretty, and Pacey and Dawson's respective obsessions with her say more about them than about any defining traits Joey might have.
I never understood why both Dawson and Pacey saw Joey as the girl for them because she both both of their hearts and treated them both horribly.
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Old 02-22-2021, 10:27 AM
  #108
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Sounds to me like he is ok with being the sloppy second any time Joey finishes up with Dawson. It's quite sad for him. Albeit, Dawson was indeed still going after Joey after she was with Pacey but I think their reunion at the end of season 4 was more initiated by Joey anyway. The subsequent times DJ were on and off in the later seasons never had anything to do with Pacey anyway whereas whenever PJ got together, it was pretty much always shortly after something was going on between DJ.

So really, Joey turns out to be the smart one here. She managed to string them both along for so many years and in the end, she gets to keep the best of both worlds. In a real life situation, it is unrealistic. In a fictional tv show setting, they made it seem realistic by portraying that Joey was genuinely loved both and because of this she needs both in her life. Lol. I think Joey was quite clever in that she was able to manipulate the situation into having both men in her life. If she ended up with Dawson, she probably would've never seen Pacey again. If she ended with Pacey, she knew and we all knew that Dawson would still be at her beck and call. So by picking Pacey she get's both of them whereas by picking Dawson she only gets one and of course that's not enough . So Joey gets everything whilst Pacey and Dawson look like the biggest lap dog losers.
Pacey became two completely different characters for me.

There was Pacey Seasons 1, 2, and part of Season 3.

Then there was Pacey Second part of Season 3 and the rest of the series.

I didn’t like the second Pacey. He absolutely looked pathetic. This is why I’ll never understand the Pacey stans. They cheered for him to have such a dark and miserable life.

The writers were basically in love with Joey. I honestly think even Pacey screaming at her at prom was to demonize him and make it “okay” for Joey to want Dawson in Coda. They always had a plan to make Joey look the best. I’m sure Stupin thought her series finale was perfect with Jen leaving her daughter behind (finish Jen off and make it her dying wish to see the triangle sorted so embarrassing), ending up with Pacey and staying close friends with the Hollywood director/producer friend who still carried feelings for her. Absolutely ridiculous.
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Old 02-23-2021, 02:04 AM
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Excellent points. Someone on the recap site Television Without Pity said this about Joey in her recap of the Series Finale:



I never understood why both Dawson and Pacey saw Joey as the girl for them because she both both of their hearts and treated them both horribly.
Good post.

I find it interesting that whilst watching it, I didn't really notice Joey's horrible treatment of Pacey that much (probably because I just wanted them to end ASAP at any cost) until I looked at it in retrospect and realised she was quite terrible to him too. Although definitely did Dawson worse.
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Old 02-23-2021, 02:17 AM
  #110
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Pacey became two completely different characters for me.

There was Pacey Seasons 1, 2, and part of Season 3.

Then there was Pacey Second part of Season 3 and the rest of the series.

I didn’t like the second Pacey. He absolutely looked pathetic. This is why I’ll never understand the Pacey stans. They cheered for him to have such a dark and miserable life.

The writers were basically in love with Joey. I honestly think even Pacey screaming at her at prom was to demonize him and make it “okay” for Joey to want Dawson in Coda. They always had a plan to make Joey look the best. I’m sure Stupin thought her series finale was perfect with Jen leaving her daughter behind (finish Jen off and make it her dying wish to see the triangle sorted so embarrassing), ending up with Pacey and staying close friends with the Hollywood director/producer friend who still carried feelings for her. Absolutely ridiculous.
Personally I didn't mind Pacey whenever he had nothing to do with Joey. As soon as he got with her and when any of his storylines linked to her, he became un-bear-able. He became this desperate dude around her (so did Dawson) and it felt like he was in the show to serve her purpose rather than have his own arc (at least with Dawson, he still had his own story). Pacey may have progressed in some areas, but overall as a character, he regressed so much.
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Old 02-23-2021, 08:10 AM
  #111
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Personally I didn't mind Pacey whenever he had nothing to do with Joey. As soon as he got with her and when any of his storylines linked to her, he became un-bear-able. He became this desperate dude around her (so did Dawson) and it felt like he was in the show to serve her purpose rather than have his own arc (at least with Dawson, he still had his own story). Pacey may have progressed in some areas, but overall as a character, he regressed so much.
I completely agree with this. I liked Pacey as Dawson's best friend in Season One and I loved him as Andie's devoted boyfriend in Season Two, but I hated him as Dawson's backstabbing friend in Season Three and Joey's doormat boyfriend in Season Four. Pacey progressed as a person with Andie, and Andie bolstered his confidence in such a way that he was able, for the first time in his life, to put his “slacker” image behind him, and obtain success, both scholastically, and, more important, as a human being. Pacey, in turn, became Andie’s hero, sticking by her as her mental condition deteriorated, acting in a truly noble and mature manner. With Joey, however, he regressed as a person and he became a slacker again, and he almost didn't graduate High School, and he was consumed by jealousy over Joey's feelings for Dawson and he became a miserable person, which led to the blowup in Promicide. I don't know how anyone could view Pacey and Joey's relationship as something positive for Pacey.
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Old 02-23-2021, 10:00 AM
  #112
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When I compare Season 2 Pacey to late Season 3 Pacey it’s really sad. He was so happy, hopeful, kind, caring in Season 2. Late Season 3 he was a backstabbing manipulative guy. These two versions are light versus dark. Complete 180 in personality. It amazes me how PJ fans think end of Season 3/Season 4 Pacey is a Jedi Knight meant to be respected and loved. Sorry, he was not a Jedi Knight. He was more like Darth Vader.
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Old 02-23-2021, 05:37 PM
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When I compare Season 2 Pacey to late Season 3 Pacey it’s really sad. He was so happy, hopeful, kind, caring in Season 2. Late Season 3 he was a backstabbing manipulative guy. These two versions are light versus dark. Complete 180 in personality. It amazes me how PJ fans think end of Season 3/Season 4 Pacey is a Jedi Knight meant to be respected and loved. Sorry, he was not a Jedi Knight. He was more like Darth Vader.
The way he cries about Andie to his dad in the S2 finale always makes me cry. I never ever envisioned they’d break them up 123 in S3. It’s Just sad
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Old 02-23-2021, 06:44 PM
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I completely agree with this. I liked Pacey as Dawson's best friend in Season One and I loved him as Andie's devoted boyfriend in Season Two, but I hated him as Dawson's backstabbing friend in Season Three.
The scene between Dawson and Pacey in the S3 finale always makes me sad when Pacey says “things are never gonna be the same between us are they” Dawson looks at him cold and simply says “ no” it was sadly the truth.
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Old 02-23-2021, 07:48 PM
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The way he cries about Andie to his dad in the S2 finale always makes me cry. I never ever envisioned they’d break them up 123 in S3. It’s Just sad
Such a good point. That is the real Pacey who was so in love with a girl he embraced. They both made each other better people. I love DJ but their love story was S1. PA had the S2 love story. That’s why I loved both DJ and PA. Both pairings balanced each other out. Dawson was less head in the clouds around Joey and Joey was less glass is half empty around Dawson. Andie had support and encouragement while she battled her mental health disorder and Pacey finally had hope for a bright future (grades better than ever) due to Andie giving him extra motivation and a belief he was worth it.

After the S2 finale I expected we’d see both main pairings have ups and downs until the college years while everyone maintained a friendship. Then I figured the college years would see one or both pairings broken up due to long distance and we’d see them find their way back to each other before the end of the series.

The foundation was built in seasons 1/2. Never in a million years did I think something as stupid as PJ would enter the picture, and the writers would literally destroy both pairings, taking down that solid foundation they spent two years building. That is precisely would happened.
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Old 02-24-2021, 07:50 AM
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When I compare Season 2 Pacey to late Season 3 Pacey it’s really sad. He was so happy, hopeful, kind, caring in Season 2. Late Season 3 he was a backstabbing manipulative guy. These two versions are light versus dark. Complete 180 in personality. It amazes me how PJ fans think end of Season 3/Season 4 Pacey is a Jedi Knight meant to be respected and loved. Sorry, he was not a Jedi Knight. He was more like Darth Vader.
yes and pacey was boring in season 4. I liked dawson with gretchen.
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Old 02-24-2021, 09:53 AM
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I liked Dawson and Gretchen together to a point, but it was so obvious that she was brought in as someone who would have ties to both Dawson and Pacey, and they manufactured a backstory where Dawson had a crush on her before he started thinking of Joey in a romantic sense.

I think that one problem with the character of Gretchen is that she was miscast: Sasha Alexander, while beautiful, didn't look like a 19 or 20 year old college girl, she looked like a woman (she was 27 - 28 when she was on the show) and she seemed almost maternal with Dawson, and her purpose seemed to be to allow him to get over his anger and hurt feelings about Pacey and Joey, and to me, her and Dawson seemed mismatched. I also feel that their relationship had temporary written all over it and once Season Four ended and Gretchen left, we never heard anything about her again.
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Old 02-24-2021, 10:10 AM
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I liked Dawson and Gretchen together to a point, but it was so obvious that she was brought in as someone who would have ties to both Dawson and Pacey, and they manufactured a backstory where Dawson had a crush on her before he started thinking of Joey in a romantic sense.
This is why I was never really on board. I didn’t waste energy on liking or hating them, I just knew they were used for a bigger story so let it play out without emotion either way.

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I think that one problem with the character of Gretchen is that she was miscast: Sasha Alexander, while beautiful, didn't look like a 19 or 20 year old college girl, she looked like a woman (she was 27 - 28 when she was on the show) and she seemed almost maternal with Dawson, and her purpose seemed to be to allow him to get over his anger and hurt feelings about Pacey and Joey, and to me, her and Dawson seemed mismatched. I also feel that their relationship had temporary written all over it and once Season Four ended and Gretchen left, we never heard anything about her again.
Totally agree with this.

I actually wish Dawson would have dated a girl his age tied to his love for film. They sort of flirted with this in S3 but I really wish he could have dated someone separate from PJ in S4 that could have been a long-term option. Not that I’d want this option long-term but it would have been nice seeing him with someone else not related to Pacey he could have shared his love for film with.

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Old 02-24-2021, 11:36 AM
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This is why I was never really on board. I didn’t waste energy on liking or hating them, I just knew they were used for a bigger story so let it play out without emotion either way.
I know exactly what you mean.

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Totally agree with this.
Granted all the actors on this show were older than the age of the characters they were playing, but it was glaringly obvious with Sasha Alexander that she wasn't 19 or 20, which would have been Gretchen's age if she had dropped out of college after one year.

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I actually wish Dawson would have dated a girl his age tied to his love for film. They sort of flirted with this in S3 but I really wish he could have dated someone separate from PJ in S4 that could have been a long-term option. Not that I’d want this option long-term but it would have been nice seeing him with someone else not related to Pacey he could have shared his love for film with.
I agree. I thought they might go there with Nikki, Principal Green's daughter, but then they wrote both of them off, and that was that. I thought that Principal Green was one of the very few good adult characters on the show and he was a positive role model, and I liked Nikki, but they were written off the show, which was a real shame. I also don't know if the producers would have had the guts to depict an interracial romance back then.
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Old 02-24-2021, 12:12 PM
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I know exactly what you mean.

Granted all the actors on this show were older than the age of the characters they were playing, but it was glaringly obvious with Sasha Alexander that she wasn't 19 or 20, which would have been Gretchen's age if she had dropped out of college after one year.

I agree. I thought they might go there with Nikki, Principal Green's daughter, but then they wrote both of them off, and that was that. I thought that Principal Green was one of the very few good adult characters on the show and he was a positive role model, and I liked Nikki, but they were written off the show, which was a real shame. I also don't know if the producers would have had the guts to depict an interracial romance back then.
I wonder if they wanted Gretchen to look and act older than Dawson or it just worked out that way based on the actress they picked.

Probably not. It was amazing enough they went with the Jack storyline. We also know how Bessie and Bodie were treated.
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