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Old 02-06-2021, 03:09 PM
  #61
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Yes, julialex's account mysteriously disappeared too. It must have been a server glitch of some sort.
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Old 02-06-2021, 09:04 PM
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Although I personally hate the S3 episode Show Me Love, I did always like it when Pacey throws the True Love title away it’s Andie who picks it up. I also hate to be petty, but I was so glad in S4 the boat got lost at sea forever.
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Old 02-07-2021, 08:52 AM
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Although I personally hate the S3 episode Show Me Love, I did always like it when Pacey throws the True Love title away it’s Andie who picks it up. I also hate to be petty, but I was so glad in S4 the boat got lost at sea forever.
That title was only meant for Andie. Not a coincidence she picked it up and the stupid boat PJ spent time on (when Joey should have been helping her sister and little nephew and their business) was destroyed.

See, these are moments you could tell were indicating PJ were toast and not meant to be. I don't know how anyone who supports PJ can watch these episodes and honestly believe they were written in a long-term convincing way. Just the opposite. So many hints and even obvious moments showing they were terribly unhealthy together and not meant to last long at all. Makes the series finale all the more pathetic and insulting.
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Old 02-07-2021, 11:20 PM
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So was I, and when you think about it I don't understand why Joey made such a big deal about the fact that Dawson was dating someone out in California. For one, I'd hardly call Natasha Dawson's "girlfriend," and he broke up with her as soon as him and Joey got together, and besides, what was he supposed to do, be a Priest? That whole scenario was so stupid, and they later kicked the Dawson and Joey fans here in the teeth when they had Joey call Dawson her "only one night stand," and they mocked their relationship in the "Dream Wedding" in the Series Finale. In the end, I think the Dawson and Joey fans got nothing: no “happy ending,” no romance, and when you look at it objectively, no friendship that even comes near the friendship that they once had. In the history of television, I don’t think a fan group has ever been cynically played like the fans of Dawson and Joey were.
I feel like all 3 times that Joey dumped Dawson were all just bizarre. The first time, and mind you after years of pining after him and finally getting together, a couple months later (not sure on the exact timeline), she decides to end it because she needs to "find herself"? Like what?? You are 15 chill. They probably would've broken up for some other stupid teenager reason but that reason just felt like it came out of nowhere (perhaps the writers just needed any excuse to break them up). The second time when it was because of her father (this was a bit of a tricky situation I admit), Dawson tried to do the right thing and keep her away from danger and she essentially disowns him not only as a boyfriend but as a friend as well which is probably the worst part of it all as friendship was the foundation of their connection (no matter how bad things got between them she never wanted to lose his friendship). The third time, she got pissed that he was seeing someone in LA when they slept together. I understand why she was annoyed but I don't think it was reason enough to completely end the relationship. He really tried to do the right thing and broke it off with Natasha the second he got a private moment after he slept with Joey but Joey just didn't want a bar of it. Yet she was happy to give it a shot with Pacey knowing he was actively involved in an affair with a married woman and in fact had just gotten beat up for it.
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Old 02-07-2021, 11:35 PM
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That title was only meant for Andie. Not a coincidence she picked it up and the stupid boat PJ spent time on (when Joey should have been helping her sister and little nephew and their business) was destroyed.

See, these are moments you could tell were indicating PJ were toast and not meant to be. I don't know how anyone who supports PJ can watch these episodes and honestly believe they were written in a long-term convincing way. Just the opposite. So many hints and even obvious moments showing they were terribly unhealthy together and not meant to last long at all. Makes the series finale all the more pathetic and insulting.
You would think the symbolism of the boat being lost forever was direct symbolism of the fate that was to await PJ. It's just textbook TV show symbolism. The boat was the symbolic foundation upon which their relationship was built on and the fact that it was destroyed it would supposedly demonstrate that their relationship was soon to face the same fate. Which is why it's even more obvious that the ending was not what was originally planned.

If I was a DJ fan and saw something like that happen to them I wouldn't have much confidence in them as endgame.
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Old 02-08-2021, 08:40 AM
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You would think the symbolism of the boat being lost forever was direct symbolism of the fate that was to await PJ. It's just textbook TV show symbolism. The boat was the symbolic foundation upon which their relationship was built on and the fact that it was destroyed it would supposedly demonstrate that their relationship was soon to face the same fate. Which is why it's even more obvious that the ending was not what was originally planned.

If I was a DJ fan and saw something like that happen to them I wouldn't have much confidence in them as endgame.
100%. I think it was a direct indication/foreshadowing they were just as doomed as the boat. I also find it interesting in that Josh interview Tony posted when asked about PJ he basically said Pacey doesn't get the girl/his relationships don't last. He had zero confidence in PJ because he had to have understood what was being written and conveyed about PJ to him as he played Pacey. He knew. I am sure it was a shock to him PJ received that ridiculous tacked on ending.

Yes, I mentioned up thread... what PJ centric episodes do PJ fans truly have to rewatch for their pairing that indicate anything but unhealthy and fated for failure for their pairing? They can watch S3 and the build up but S4 and S6 were not good for them. Even the tacked on ending made zero sense. I have never heard many PJers take a stance that their pairing was fated or makes sense based on the material we received in the episodes. Not many. Some believe the S1 Snail episode was foreshadowing, lol. But the vast majority understand they got very lucky and the story didn't support the ending even if they will never outwardly admit as much.
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Old 02-08-2021, 08:46 AM
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This is something that I wrote at the end of Season Two in answer to the question that someone posed about which breakup on Dawson's Creek impacted me the most.

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The breakup that impacted me the most was Dawson and Joey’s first breakup, because it came as a completely disappointing and disheartening shock to me, and Joey’s reason for breaking up with Dawson made no sense to me whatsoever, and it started me on the path to being the confirmed Joey hater that I am today!

For me, the breakup of these two "star crossed lovers" has been the single most disappointing development on this show, and I never felt the same way about this show, or these characters, after that happened.

The first season of Dawson's Creek established the central theme that was, for me, the core of the appeal of the show, Joey Potter's secret, and initially unrequited, love for her “best friend” Dawson Leery. We suffered with Joey as Dawson pursued, and then lost, his first girlfriend, Jen Lindley, and we collectively wondered how such a seemingly self aware and intelligent young man could be so utterly clueless to the affections and charms of his misunderstood, but wonderfully appealing, best friend. Just about every single fan cheered for Joey, and vilified Jen, to the point where entire websites were created dedicated to hating her character, although I personally always liked Jen, and sympathized with the situation she was in. Therefore, almost everyone was delighted when Dawson finally "took off the blinders" and realized his true feelings for Joey, and everyone literally jumped for joy when these characters at last met in a passionate embrace at the end of the last episode of that magical and sorely missed season.

Therefore, everyone tuned into the second season of Dawson’s Creek happily anticipating seeing Dawson and Joey interact as a couple, and face the changes and challenges that lay before them together. I, for one, hoped that Joey, finally secure in a loving relationship, could let down her guard, and overcome the bitterness and resentment she felt due to her tragic family history. I also hoped that Dawson, realizing that he was in a real relationship with someone else, would start acting less self absorbed and realize that the world doesn't always revolve around him and his interests, and that Dawson would have to consider Joey's feelings and interests as well. Instead, the writers chose to break Joey and Dawson up in an incredibly contrived and poorly handled way. This caused many of the fans of the show, including myself, to resent the Joey character and view her actions as selfish, insensitive, and incredibly hypocritical. Ever since the breakup of Dawson and Joey, I felt a seething resentment any time I saw her and Jack, who Joey started dating after she told Dawson she needed time alone to "find herself", interacting on the screen together, and that resentment has never left me, and it’s only deepened over the years. I deeply resented the fact that Joey hooked up with Jack, and that she was kinder and more understanding towards Jack than she ever was to Dawson. Joey really seemed to disregard Dawson's feelings, even though he had always been there for her, through good times and bad, first as a dear friend, and then as a loving and loyal boyfriend. I also resented the fact that Joey broke up with Dawson just when he needed her the most, when his parents' marriage was breaking up, and when his carefully constructed world was falling apart, and she’s continued to disregard his feelings, with rare exception, ever since.

What I think the writers did, in the interest of creating conflict, was destroy the wonderful relationship dynamic between these two characters, and it’s never been the same since then, because even when they got back together, it rang false for me, because Joey never accomplished her goal of “finding her something,” and it seemed like she only went back to Dawson after Jack revealed he was gay and he broke up with her, a pattern she repeated years later when she broke his heart again by becoming romantically involved with Pacey, and then she only appreciated Dawson and told him how “incredible” he was after Pacey broke up with her and left town without even saying goodbye to her. My main disappointment stems from the fact that I felt that both Joey and Dawson deserved happiness after all the drama in their lives, with Joey having to suffer through an unrequited love for her best friend, and with Dawson suffering the pain and anguish of his breakup with Jen. To me, the writers did nothing but make almost everyone unhappy on the show, and the also made all of us fans of the friendship and the romantic relationship of Dawson and Joey very unhappy as well when they broke them up in Season Two. Therefore the first breakup of Dawson and Joey was definitely the breakup that had the most impact on me.
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Old 02-08-2021, 08:56 AM
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^ Completely agree.

Kevin basically admitted be broke up DJ in the first few episodes of S2 because he didn't expect a S2 in the first place. Had he known, he would have kept DJ apart for a longer stretch. Not good enough, Kevin. If you are going to break them up, then have a better reason to break them up... nothing in S1 made us believe Joey would finally get her dream of her best friend noticing her in a romantic way only for her to throw this dream away two seconds later to supposedly find herself and then date another guy out of the blue two more seconds later. Make it make sense, Kevin. You didn't. You failed.
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Old 02-08-2021, 11:26 AM
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^ Completely agree.

Kevin basically admitted be broke up DJ in the first few episodes of S2 because he didn't expect a S2 in the first place. Had he known, he would have kept DJ apart for a longer stretch. Not good enough, Kevin. If you are going to break them up, then have a better reason to break them up... nothing in S1 made us believe Joey would finally get her dream of her best friend noticing her in a romantic way only for her to throw this dream away two seconds later to supposedly find herself and then date another guy out of the blue two more seconds later. Make it make sense, Kevin. You didn't. You failed.
Stupin on the dvd commentaries keeps saying over and over looking back how Joey’s reasons for her first breakup with Dawson really don’t make any sense.
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Old 02-08-2021, 12:46 PM
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Stupin on the dvd commentaries keeps saying over and over looking back how Joey’s reasons for her first breakup with Dawson really don’t make any sense.
You're a braver man than I am to listen to that idiot Stupin.
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Old 02-08-2021, 01:35 PM
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Stupin on the dvd commentaries keeps saying over and over looking back how Joey’s reasons for her first breakup with Dawson really don’t make any sense.
Wow. What an idiot. I mean, he’s right but it makes him look even worse since he fell in love with PJ and reportedly is the reason Williamson changed his mind at the last minute to give PJ the tacked on ending. Imagine if DJ and PA wouldn’t have been destroyed... Stupin might still be actively working right now. Instead, Berlanti left Dawson’s Creek, vowed not to create Everwood anything close to Dawson’s Creek... biggest decision he ever made. The endless critical acclaim authentic Everwood received is absolutely why his career took off and presently he’s the King of DC TV along with endless other projects.

Stupin going all power hungry and wanting the series to be his own after Williamson left systematically destroyed everything once good about Dawson’s Creek. He literally is personally responsible for why he never did much of anything post-Dawson’s Creek. He was his own worst enemy.

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Old 02-08-2021, 02:19 PM
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You're a braver man than I am to listen to that idiot Stupin.
It’s not easy, only reason I did was just to hear any interesting tidbits about the episode or season.
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Old 02-08-2021, 02:23 PM
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Wow. What an idiot. I mean, he’s right but it makes him look even worse since he fell in love with PJ and reportedly is the reason Williamson changed his mind
Oh Stupin is the reason 100%. series finale commentary KW says he wrote the D/J ending and called Stupin and asked “ is this the way to do it” smh
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Old 02-09-2021, 08:39 AM
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Oh Stupin is the reason 100%. series finale commentary KW says he wrote the D/J ending and called Stupin and asked “ is this the way to do it” smh
Oh did he? He all but admitted Stupin changed his mind. Also proof Williamson hadn't watched any episodes post-S2. If so, he would have known on his own PJ was not an option. Stupin fooled him and took advantage of the fact that Williamson probably felt guilt and cluelessness for not being around in years.
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Old 02-09-2021, 11:10 AM
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Oh did he? He all but admitted Stupin changed his mind. Also proof Williamson hadn't watched any episodes post-S2. If so, he would have known on his own PJ was not an option. Stupin fooled him and took advantage of the fact that Williamson probably felt guilt and cluelessness for not being around in years.
Yep, he says “ when I sat down to write this thing D/J were going to end up together folks and I did write it” Stupin then says “then you called me” KW says “ I called you and asked if this was the way to do it” Stupin says” we talked and talked and changed our minds” KW later says he didn’t like the idea of giving Andie to Pacey as a consolation prize since Joey was picking Dawson.
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