jediwands

Yes they were. Mark created a perfect foundation using those two romantic relationships/one friendship. Season 1 worked perfectly due to this core/foundation. Somehow in season 2, Mark was okay carelessly not protecting this foundation and letting stupid relationships/storylines get in the way of what was perfectly working in season 1. LP and NH were more or less split apart in season 2. To go from that wonderful core/foundation in season 1 then basically breaking everything apart in season 2 was too drastic and just absurd. It was a shame.

Alexa

Thats the other thing about NH, it lessened Haley. Because Nathan did so many crappy things and Haley just took him back. I would have liked to see them break up for a bit. I wish they actually HAD gotten the annulment in season 3 for example, instead of getting back together so soon.

Or in season 4 during the whole daunt thing, they should have separated for a while... or in 5 during the potential divorce I wish it had stuck. The nanny carrie stuff really bothered me. There were so many opportunities for them to break up for a while and it just didnt happen.


I do think that killing Keith ruined Dan's character. It was a big moment but it was impossible for him to ever redeem himself. They took it too far. Now had he held the gun at keith, then we heard the shot, then we thought he killed Keith, that would have been better. bUt they could have revealed that he didnt actually shoot keith later on, that he put the gun down because he couldnt do it, and then Jimmy really did shoot him or sometihng, that would have made a lot more sense to me. But i felt it was wrong to kill Keith period because Lucas needed that father figure in his life. He already had Dan ripped from him!

I would have just liked to see development for Dan and see him starting to grow as a father. Much how he did in season 4 by taking the fall for Nathan and some other nice things he did but without the murder plot. Because again, that was too far. And by making Dan that evil no one would want to forgive him and the audience wouldnt want them to forgive him either. Dan was such a messy character because I genuinely felt sympathy for hi but i shouldn't have. I wish they had just made his remorse fake and he could have gone back to being evil or something so that when he died the audience would have been happy. It was too conflicting of feelings imo for him.


I like Lucas, I just was more indifferent to him than anything else. And I didnt like his wishy washy ness.

But I dont have to love both people in a ship to love the ship. I cant dislike one part but i can be indifferent. In fact, with most of my ships i am indifferent o one of the character and love the others lol. Its rare for me to love both the characters.

But my love for Lucas and LP in season 1 always carried over.



My gripes with season 2 were the lack of basketball and the lack of LP but other than that i really loved season 2. TBH season 2 was one of the only times i LIKED nh. I found the angst and the drama more entertaining than the lovely dovey boring stuff. And there were some great episodes in there. I didnt even mind BL that season tbh. It wasnt my favorite season ever, but it fell somewhere in the middle. Season 1 was my favorite as well but I liked 3 a lot too and then 5, which is weird.


It wasnt that LP werent together that bothered me tbh. It was the fact that they didnt even interact that season that really pisses me off more than anything. How can you claim to love a ship and have them be endgame from the start and then not have them interact? Makes zero sense to me.


Yes, it was completely out of nowhere. BL had a scene in 209 on the beach and then he took her home, they agreed to be friends. Suddenly episode 1 they are walking to school and Lucas realizes he has feelings? So silly and rushed.

However, I dont remember them having that much build up after that either. I remember 214 with the election stuff, but that was only like 2 scenes right? 216 having scenes at the wedding… 217 or 218 whichever one with Brooke living at Karens. And then 222 and 223 right? But to be honest it really wasnt THAT much which I was good with lol.

I honestly feel bad for Sophia having to kiss her cheating ex-husband. That would have been hard.

Bl honestly are one of the worst written couples Ive ever seen on tv. Ive never seen writers prove how badly a couple worked together more than them lol. They were the definition of dysfunctional mis match lol.


I def. dont think that BL broke up only because of CS though, in fact they dated all season long when CS were apart. LP were very cleary intended to be the endgame lol.


I don’t even want to talk about LL and the stupid marriage. That was too far. It still makes me angry. I was fine with him dating Lindsey but proposing to her was bull****.



Michelle I think that both bughead and varchie could have afforded better build up. I was fine with how fast varchie happened because they interacted in 101 and through to when they kissed, for me their issue was all the other girls archie kissed. I wish the valerie relationship hadn't of happened or the cheryl kiss.... Bughead had less build up but their scene were very sweet that it felt natural. but still, i love angst so i would have liked more build up for both. But bughead i think is one of those couples that might be better together than apart.

This is the post... keep in mind that I was annoyed because bughead fans were just ripping on VA. I love both pairings but I mean, its unfair to say that VA was rushed and bughead isn't. And how can you be tumblr challenged? Im obsessed with tumblr lol.


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http://gothicbarbie.tumblr.com/post/...chie-excuse-me

I don’t agree with you. I love both pairings btw, but Bughead was 100% more rushed than Varchie was…
Bughead IMO may have known each other for longer, but it doesn’t seem they were that close as friends. To me, it seems that their association was mostly because of Archie. If they were that close wouldn’t they have met each others parents already and been to each others houses? And even if they were apparent good buddies like the show claims, we never saw any of that. The show started in 101. At which point Bughead were no longer that close of friends that they “used to be”. So we didnt get to see any of it. It doesnt matter if two people were married in the past, if the show starts and they arent together then they need to start over and build that relationship up again for the audience to see. They didnt really do that with Bughead. Maybe that works for you but it doesn’t work for me.


Let’s compare a little… (forgive me if I get something wrong as I’ve only seen the series 1 time through)

101: Varchie meet for the first time. They share a nice convo in the closet and a kiss (which some people say is rushed but IMO it wasn’t because it was part of a game and not a true first kiss so I don’t really see it that way).
Jughead was barely in the episode himself so Bughead don’t interact. Betty is “in love” with Archie.

102: Varchie had a conversation outside Pops. So their connection as friends at least was forming immediately and some could argue that romantic undertones were thrown in there.
Bughead still didn’t interact. Betty was still in love with Archie.

103: Minimal interaction for Varchie but they at least had an awkward run in in the boys locker room.
Bughead finally interact in this one but they are short scenes and felt very platonic to me.

104: Small Varchie interaction but it did feel that Veronica was a little protective over Archie and the Grundy situation.
Bughead I honestly dont remember their interaction in this episode except for a little look at pops but I could be missing something. I still didn’t get a romantic vibe in any of their scenes though, and wasn’t Betty still hung up on the Grundy thing with Archie?

105: Veronica fixes up Archie’s hand in this one and its filled with sexual tension and flirtation. Veronica is visibly jealous of Archie and Valerie. It’s not too much too soon though, I think the pacing is great.
Bughead are cute, finally some good interaction. I loved the little looks between them once they were all dressed up, but this is the first episode that we start to see that tension starting to build. (And still some could interpret those smiles as just friends being impressed with how nicely the other cleans up ya know?)

106: So much Varchie in this one. They were going to partner together and when Archie decides to parter with Val, Veronica is very clearly upset about it. But by the end of the episode she encourages him to go on stage and fixes his tie. More sexual tension. She tells him to find someone that makes him feel safe. He looks at HER when he’s singing. More nice build up.
Bughead, nice interactions, and then it goes from 0-60 and they kiss. ALREADY. Like, I love them and I loved the kiss, but it was so fast. They only started interaction in episode 103 and now in 106 they are kissing? That’s 3 episodes dude. How is that not rushed? There aren’t even obstacles in their way after they kiss, they are basically together immediately. (couple obstacles yes, but not like, getting together obstacles if that makes sense.)

Meanwhile from 107-110 Varchie continue to build. They share a lot of looks through the rest of the episodes and some more cute scenes. People try to claim they are only sex but they had multiple talks about their friends and their families. They shared that adorable hug in the kitchen and confided in each other. They don’t even kiss for the first time ( a real first kiss) until episode 10.

I do think that Varchie were slightly rushed as well, because 10 episodes isn’t a whole lot of time to form something, but it’s a lot more than 3 episodes! They also weren’t really an official couple until the finale really. So while they kissed, they still had to “fight” to be together and figure some other things out first. Bughead were like immediately a couple.

On top of all of that while Archie dated other people I don’t think he was really in love with them, compared to Betty being in love with Archie and then moving on quickly to Jughead.

People are free to interpret things how they like, but to me, Varchie took 12 episodes to get together, where as Bughead took 3 so… you tell me who is more rushed.

secretk

I have talent called selective memory. Another talent is going into flight mode. Usually those are typical male talents, but I posses them without issues . As a result I filter out every little thing I dislike . I am so good that I even surprise myself by how much I filter out stuff that I did not enjoy.

Btw I watched OTH when I was still in university with my roommate. It was in the summer before Season 5 so we binge-watched the whole 4 seasons in the span of month or two. Definitely was fun. However the moment we started Season 5 I realized that the show is not the same and basically I stopped watching after the Season 5 finale and considered Season 4 finale as a show finale. Something was missing once they stopped being in high school. I never enjoyed them as adults.

Anyway my roommate was BL fan. It was really interesting. Obviously we have never fought or anything about it, but she liked Brooke and found BL cute. We also watched with her Roswell but there we had more similarities as far as shipping and couples go. We would wait for each other and we tried to not watch those shows without the other one.

stlavin95

The way they went about it was even more insulting imo.

stlavin95

Will be interesting to see what he thinks of them.

stlavin95

I honestly don't think Mark could come up with one lol and I would be surprised if he didn't get why people hated it that whole storyline.

stlavin95

Easily the best option

stlavin95

I would have had less issues with those changes if season 2 occurred a couple of months after S1, not an few hours. Not enough time had passed imo to make those changed believable.

stlavin95

Yeah, I don't really get what Mark was thinking there tbh he would have had to have known that a lot of people would have hated for Dan for it for good, But honeslty, I wouldn't have really enjoyed Jimmy killing Keith either since it wouldn't have fitted with his behaviour in that episode at all imo and I personally would have preferred that Keith didn't die at all, since Luke needed an father figure and that was never going to Dan.

Fair point, I personally was never indifferent to Luke's character at all (minus season 5 lol) and that even includes in the later seasons. With pretty much all of ships, I love both characters and it's an requirement for me to ship an couple lol.

I also had issues with the way they wrote the NH drama in that season, the fact that Anna & Felix had too much focus at times (even though I liked the former), too many guest stars & how each of the core 5 was paired off with one in some parts of the season and the JP storyline (& how Peyton came off at times because of it) as well the lack of LP and basketball. Outside of some of the friendships and Brooke's development, I really can't think of anything else I liked about S2.

I think they separated LP for simple reason that no one would have bought BL/JP being all close and all if LP were still in each other's lifes in S2. Personally, I was more bothered by the fact neither storylines matched up to how S1 ended and how they rewrote the S1 triangle to make it both couples seem not forced. Don't think both couples storylines was the original plan for the character involved and it showed with how last minute they both seemed. I wouldn't say it was just feelings either tbh, since they were pretty implying that Luke was still in love with Brooke and he was trying to get his dream girl back.

Going back to BL in S2 was really dumb imo and I don't really care how much BL there was since any romantic BL is too much. Even if they didn't get a lot of screentime in some episodes (I do think they was more BL in the second half of S2 than what you are saying) Luke was still all about Brooke and it was noticeable to everyone apparently. I laugh at people who say BL weren't endgame because of CS' divorce and how Mark wanted to make things easier for them since if they were true, why did get back together then? And that's not act like that CS' relationship played no part in why BL 2.0 occurred in the first place.

jediwands

The first time I saw the series I actually hated Nathan/Haley and posted on a thread that talked about Haley being diminished, precisely the same things you are saying. I really disliked them and completely agree with you. The second time around I learned to like them more but I think some of that was I knew how it all turned out. I figured it made no sense hating on them anymore even if I still believed Haley looked really dumb sometimes accepting Nathan's huge faults and not having a backbone more. Even when they first got married... that dumb look on Haley's face as she's showing Luke she got married. I almost wanted to hide my eyes from the embarrassment. I was embarrassed for Haley, it's just an uncomfortable scene. But anyway, I just gave up with the complaining and learned to enjoy their scenes more because I figured they weren't Brooke/Lucas, the pairing that I really despised. Lucas/Peyton is THE pairing for me on this show. I was hooked from The Pilot and never wavered. I just loved the Chad/Hilarie chemistry and Lucas/Peyton story.

As a former basketball player one of the main reasons why I checked out the series was the basketball angle. I didn't like the lack of basketball at all in season 2. Basketball felt like a prominent character in season 1 so to suddenly ignore felt like a character died almost. I couldn't stand it. The lack of Lucas/Peyton in season 2 gave me headaches.

It worked my last nerve.

I couldn't even imagine.

That's why I don't understand how anyone can believe they had a strong, believable story. How's that even possible? The story was written to show how wrong for each other they were. They had zero emotional connection. When Lucas truly needed something he was off looking for his mom, Haley or Peyton. Brooke looked miserable and deep down knew they were wrong for each other. They were so dysfunctional.

Exactly. Always it was Lucas/Peyton.

I really disliked Lucas in so many season 5 moments and that proposal was one of them.

I think that's what initially bothered me about Varchie... Archie with the teacher, Val, weird Cheryl thing for a second, it kind of seemed like he was fine just going from one to the other. However, it was crystal clear from the start he was attracted to Veronica in a way that couldn't compare to anyone else. He knew he had an attraction and it just took off. I also love how they were there for each other in season 1 during so many key moments as friends too. Initially though I was scared Veronica was going to get sht on if Archie kept up sort of going with the flow with other girls and I didn't want to see that. I was so happy that is not what happened. I am still a little scared of what might happen if the showrunner does anything with Betty and Archie. It would be a major mistake. Are you scared they might go in that direction if/when Bughead and/or Varchie are on a break? It seems silly to seem shocked considering this is the Archie comics and the triangle was classic. However, outside of Betty's crush early season 1 if they show anything romantic between Archie/Betty it will be insulting the audience. We have seen nothing remotely indicating they are a possibility. Archie is very much happy with Veronica and Betty is talking being in love with Jughead.

I basically stay away from Facebook and Tumblr because I'm weird. Honestly, I don't even know how Tumblr functions, lol. I guess the best way to describe me is Luke Danes, lol. Very basic, I don't even like upgrading my phone, haha, and probably would still be using dial up Internet if high speed didn't happen since at the time I lived with my parents. I'm weird, I know.

These are brilliants thoughts. Wow. You are right, they actually had way more build up than Bughead. I think it's all about how the pairings are a bit different in how they function/operate. The way Bughead are so sweet/slow moving in how they kind of express their thoughts to each other you feel like they've been together forever but you are right, it really did happen over 3 episodes, lol. That's crazy. Jughead was basically jealous for like two seconds over Betty possibly going on a date (if I remember this correctly) and they got together about an episode later. You are absolutely right, Varchie really did have the longer build up. Even when I said they were friends and had friendship scenes when I read your thoughts they truly were always in that gray zone even if they stayed in the friendship lane for a while before getting together romantically. For me, Bughead and Varchie are Dawson/Joey and Pacey/Andie. They are my pairings of the series and that's never going to change. Oh I forgot to mention how much I loved in 2.1 so much endgame Varchie talk used during the Fred storyline. If that's not foreshadowing I don't know what is.

jediwands

That's so awesome.

Interesting! Did your roommate watch the entire series of OTH? Good that you guys at least were on the same page with Roswell! Do you still talk to your roommate?

jediwands

It really was.

jediwands

Come on, Jerry, get watching.

jediwands

Just so stupid.

Which storyline do you think was a bigger waste: Brucas Revisit or LL lingering in season 5?

jediwands

That's so true.