jediwands

Most annoying secondary character people liked but you never did?

jediwands

Precisely. Especially given how Nathan was in general. He had a lot to overcome and I don't really like stories where it's assumed bad boys and girls change because of love, another person. I don't like that. I rather see the person realistically change individually even if the relationship is a good thing too.

ds44

I think the build up to their relationship was fine. However, the marriage was rushed.

jediwands

I don’t understand why marriage was necessary. It honestly made it seem like they went there so Haley could have sex with Nathan.

secretk

In general I agree with you and I could see why some people dislike Naley because of this. I never saw their story as Nathan changing for Haley. I saw it more like Haley was the first girl trying to see something different in Nathan. She was the first girl that actually offered Nathan's help and support when it comes to his issues with Dan. Nathan appreciated that. I do not think that Nathan changed for Haley so much as he was motivated to keep the relationship because of what he was getting. Something he did not get from his friends or parents. Something he actually needed and liked. Him acting out was because he had no support. The moment he got it, he did not need to act out.

Otherwise I agree with you. People do not change for others. It's really difficult for people to change in general, let alone for someone else. If people do manage to change it's because they had felt compelled to change. It's not for someone else.

secretk

You kind of answered your question . Exactly. They wanted Naley to have sex so this is why they needed the marriage. I found it pointless either. They put themselves in the corner the moment they showed that Haley wants to get married before having sex. They should have kept it more neutral by saying that Haley wants to be in love to have sex. That would have worked far better IMO.

jediwands

What do you think of people who believe Haley changed who she was for Nathan by putting up with some stuff over the years and some called Haley without a backbone as a result?

I just wish overall we would have seen slower changes for Nathan. Man he had some horrible parents, lol. It takes a lot to snap out of that environment. He treated Peyton like garbage as a result. So his change from one point to the next was ultra quick and a bit unrealistic.

jediwands

Precisely. That's part of the backbone thing I mentioned in the last post as well. So many were upset that Haley had sex with Nathan and went there only because they married. It wasn't a good look for some.

You're right... I mean, look at Haley's parents... I find it kind of interesting that Haley was so conservative with the no sex before marriage thing. Her family wasn't like that, she was, and while that's a great independent thought and she had every right to go there... you would basically see that from someone like Hannah from Everwood though... conservative parents, religion, upbringing. Not Haley's, you know? It was different.

But yes, the no sex before marriage didn't have to be! Why go there? Have Haley and Nathan sleep together because they trusted each other and were in love, period, end of story. No one doubted their feelings. The story was way strong enough. Too bad the sex/marriage part was included. I wonder if it was rushed because Mark wanted to play up the brother thing and Lucas' reaction to the marriage, etc. If so, he could have found another way to create conflict between the brothers. Using Haley wasn't necessary.

stlavin95

Same, that would have worked a lot better than Haley wanting to wait until getting married. They did that with Lucas after S1, but yet again he did sleep with Brooke and Lindsay when he wasn't in love with them.

stlavin95

I would say Mouth, but no one liked him lol

stlavin95

I think he changed because he wanted to change for Haley, but I still think his change in character was still rushed imo.

jediwands

That’s true.

jediwands

Agreed.

stlavin95

Yep, especially he was emotionally abusive to Peyton at the start of the show too.

stlavin95

Yep