Jerry D

What Dawson’s Creek did in Season One that it failed to do in other seasons was tell an engaging story that captivated us and allowed us to understand the motivations of these characters. In that Season, we were allowed a glimpse of the special friendship that Dawson and Joey had, and everyone’s heart broke for Joey as we saw that she harbored an unrequited love for her best friend, Dawson, who she shared her life with. We saw countless examples of Dawson and Joey’s close friendship as they would watch movies together, and hang out together, and as Dawson would share his deepest and most intimate secrets with her, especially about his head over heels infatuation with Jen Lindley. We saw Joey support Dawson as he pursued, won, and then lost Jen, so we knew they were friends, and we understood the connection they had with one another. I thought that Dawson’s feelings for Joey were perfectly evoked in “Breaking Away,” when he described her to her father using the following words: “I mean, she's smart, she's beautiful, she's funny, she's a big ol' scaredy cat. If you creep up from behind her she'll jump out of her skin. It's pretty amusing. She's honest. She always calls them just like she sees them. You can always count on getting the truth from Joey even if the truth hurts. She's stubborn. We fight a lot. She can be so frustrating sometimes. But she's a really, really, good friend. I know her to a fault. She believes in me. And I'm a dreamer so it's so good to have somebody like that in my life. If she goes away, I don't know what I'm going to do. I mean, she's my best friend, you know? She's more than that. She's everything.” Right there, we understood why Dawson loved Joey, and why he thought she was so special.

We also saw that Pacey and Dawson had a close friendship, perhaps not as close as Dawson and Joey’s friendship was, but a close friendship nonetheless. During Season One, I really got the sense that Dawson and Pacey were close friends, and certain scenes really emphasized this fact for me. One scene was in “Carnal Knowledge,” when Pacey asked Dawson for the tape of his “first time” with Tamara, which Dawson had inadvertently “recorded for posterity” when he accidentally left the camera running at the ruins when he was filming scenes for his movie, and he said to Dawson: “Uh, this is, this is gonna sound a little strange but on the tape, I, did I look all right? Performance wise, did I cut it, man? And Dawson answered him: Yeah, you did fine, man. I mean, from what I could tell, yeah, you did fine.” In that scene, Pacey and Dawson were relating as best friends, Pacey showing his vulnerability about whether his “first time” “looked okay” to his best friend, and Dawson reassuring his best friend that he was fine. Another scene that illustrated Pacey and Dawson’s close friendship at that time was in “Modern Romance,” after Pacey had kissed Joey, and Dawson asked him about it, and Pacey showed, as many best friends do, that he knew Dawson’s true feelings about Joey far better than even Dawson did at the time, and he responded to Dawson’s retort that he was “so full of it” when Pacey said that him and Joey “were thinking about heading up to this cozy little B and B up the coast and spending some quality time this weekend,” and Pacey responded: “*Yes I am.* And so are you. You know, it's time you start asking yourself some serious questions, Dawson. Because you exhaust way too much time and energy on a girl you call your friend. So, you know what? Let's just set the record straight here. Who's it going to be? Is it Jen or is it Joey? Do you like the blond or do you like the brunette? These questions are not going to go away, Dawson. It's time you provide some answers.” To me, that’s what best friends do, they force people to face the truth about themselves some times, and those two examples provided me very convincing proof that Dawson and Pacey were, in fact, best friends.

To me then, in Season One, the writers told us very convincing stories that illustrated the close relationship that all these characters had, so you understood why they were friends, or why both Dawson and Joey were reluctant, and even afraid, of taking their friendship to a different level, or why Dawson was infatuated with Jen. To me, we got to know and understand these characters, and the stories were character driven, and each episode, and the story it told, built upon the previous episode.

After that season, however, right from the first episode of Season Two on, the story telling aspects of the show began to fail, and the show changed from a character driven drama, where the plots fit the characters, to an event driven melodrama, where the characters were forced to fit the plots. I think a lot of my anger towards Joey Potter’s character was that the writers never presented any convincing reason, through effective story telling, as to why she broke up with Dawson, or why she later briefly reunited with him. All we had since Season One was a bunch of mostly unconvincing stories that didn’t allow us to understand why certain characters behaved the way they did, and these characters, in many ways, have veered so far from what we initially knew of them as to become virtually unrecognizable. I think that if the writers had told us a convincing story of how Pacey and Joey’s relationship changed from being adversaries, to friends, and then to lovers, we wouldn’t have had the couple wars that permeated the Dawson's Creek message board here, and we would have understood why Pacey and Joey had come to love one another. Personally, aside from some angst filled stares from Pacey, stares we never saw reciprocated by Joey, and a few conversations between Pacey and Doug, and Pacey and Buzz about Joey, we never really understood why Pacey had fallen in love with Joey, and why Joey, seemingly out of nowhere, had fallen in love with him.

After Season Four, the show lost even more of what made it special when they left Capeside for Boston, and the show became the Joey Potter Hour, and it became little more than a badly written night time soap opera where the actors phoned in their performances, especially Katie Holmes, who just played “cutsie” and mugged her way through all of her scenes, even when she actually got mugged and her mugger told her she was “hot,” and James Van Der Beek, whose contempt for the show and the direction it took showed in his later performances.

When I look back at When I look back at Dawson’s Creek, I always think of two words: Wasted Potential.

jediwands

I just found this quote by Fannie:

You can tell she is speaking only of season 1. She is correcting it by saying it took much longer for them to get together. I can't imagine what she thought while watching the show post season 1, especially seasons 3/4 and watching the Dawson/Joey aka Kevin/Fannie friendship even go in the tank during so much of the rest of the series. I can't believe Kevin had such a great opportunity to honor his special dynamic with his ex girlfriend and childhood best friend and he just trashed it post season 1.

It's special.

Why do you think Fan Forum lost some of that mature audience? Could it be because as the site got bigger with more posters, and the median age got younger, the mature posters sort of stopped posting? It is very interesting that the mature posters sort of left and the younger posters have taken over. It is too bad both groups cannot exist together if even separate if that makes sense.

I really missed out!

Why do you think so many had that same type of bad energy? They reminded me of a cult. If you weren't in, you were treated like garbage and singled out.

The first part of the screename was the same name as Andy Brown's deceased late wife and Ephram and Delia's mom.

Indeed.

Jerry D

I think several things happened. As Dawson's Creek became a pale echo of what it once was, a lot of the older fans lost interest and stopped watching the show and posting. I also think that we grew so much that the website lost its intimate feeling and people got lost in the shuffle, except for on a board like this. I also think that a lot of the boards we added were for shows that appealed to teenagers, and when we started adding celebrity boards, we got a lot of posters who just wanted to squee over their favorite actor or actress, so that drove away a lot of the older posters too.

There was a poster here who used to call them "The Angries," and it was a really accurate name for them. They were like a bunch of mean high school girls who were cliquish and who treated anyone that disagreed with them harshly. Some of them were just plain cruel, and they delighted in being mean to people.

I figured it was her. She was the meanest of all of them. Her account "disappeared" from here shortly after I became the Site Administrator, along with the account of my former co-moderator who tried to get me fired as a moderator. I wonder what happened to those accounts?

jediwands

Wow, your post above is fabulous! I will respond to that tomorrow. I missed your posts so much and this is a prime example of why.

That makes great sense. I am so glad that Everwood has maintained.

LOL I love the nickname.

Yes, it was really bad. I have never seen anything like it before. It started getting bad around season 3? Were any of these posters once Dawson/Joey or Pacey/Andie fans that eventually went to Pacey/Joey or did they always hate Dawson as much as it appeared? You have to wonder why they stuck with the show then if they had such hatred for the main character and the main pairing. Their Pacey/Joey didn't start happening until season 3 and unless you count snails for like a second in season 1, Pacey/Joey were not hinted at at all until that season 3 dock scene. I remember watching that scene and thinking, "Oh no" because I just knew it was going there. Eve helped the cause as she got Dawson out of the way for a while.

I love it!!!!!

Jerry D

Yes, it started getting bad on the Dawson's Creek board in Season Three. That's when a lot of the mean-spirited Pacey and Joey fans joined Fan Forum. They weren't here before that. Most Pacey and Joey fans were just Dawson haters, and they loved Pacey, so their main motivation for Pacey to end up with Joey was so they could have bragging rights, and the first thread they posted after the Series Finale aired was entitled "We Won."

kabous

I really did like Dawson's Creek and I am still a huge fan of Joshua Jackson but I think Everwood is the better show because DC feels dated, while Everwood is timeless.

I am currently re-watching season 2 of Everwood and my mind is blown. The show is so freaking good.

Jerry D

Everwood is definitely the better show, and I agree that Dawson's Creek seems dated now while Everwood is timeless. Everwood also did a much better job of focusing on the adults on the show as well as the teenagers, and while Ephram and Amy's romance was important, what was really central to the show was Ephram and Andy's relationship, and we got to see all of the characters grow and evolve over the seasons, which is something we never got to see the Dawson's Creek characters do.

kabous

The way they handled their "adult" characters is one of the reasons why I love Everwood so much. Look at Rose and Harold vs Mitch and Gale. It is a great example of drama vs melodrama.

I think Everwood, The OC and Friday Night Lights are the best "teen shows" ever and a lot of that has to do with smart and entertaining adults on that shows

jediwands

kabous, I am so glad you are loving season 2 and Everwood as a whole.

I love that quote so much. James Van Der Beek plays Dawson as so vulnerable yet strong as he comes to the conclusion through his words that Joey is his everything and it crosses over to romance.

Also, Joey pinned and wanted to be with Dawson romantically more than anything in the entire world which is why season 2 when she instantly pulls away, it is so unreal and off the wall. Even if she was scared and overwhelmed, it was still ridiculous she immediately went for Jack and continues to be scared of Dawson for a long while after that. Of course, the drug situation with her dad was a convenient obstacle at the end of season 2 to break them up for good since I don't count season 6 as anything but sleeping together and immediately breaking up. Apparently their relationship couldn't be explored romantically for more than two seconds once again.

But yes, their friendship was firmly established, this strong bond and emotional connection that went straight into romantic territory. It started to evaporate after season 1. It is such a shame.

You are absolutely right, Dawson/Pacey were showcased as true guy best friends with a special bond twisted in there. It was real. Dawson even supported Pacey with Andie, no questions asked. He was there for him, they both were there for each other. There was this history and deep friendship between them. Of course that was destroyed too once we hit season 3 (the beginning) and complete destruction in season 4... all for the dreaded triangle from hell.

So well said, my friend. You summed it up flawlessly.

Yes. I honestly got the impression that many of them hated Dawson/Joey fans and Dawson as a whole more than they actually liked Pacey/Joey. It was about winning the "title" for bragging rights over actually caring too much about what they were winning. I mean, they liked Pacey/Joey, of course, but it really seemed like they had more passion for hating on Dawson/Joey fans and Dawson as a character. All his rips about his head shape and those sick and twisted responses drove me up a wall. I also loved the insinuation that if you were female and liked Dawson/Joey, you were almost into the man ruling a woman type of thing since Dawson was pegged as controlling and unhealthy. I find that rich because in many ways, I'm a borderline feminist so I laughed as I disagreed wholeheartedly.

jediwands

What a perfect observation. I agree with you entirely! Great point, you couldn't be more right on.

Jerry D

Great points, Michelle. Part of the problem was that the writers, under Paul Stupin, turned Dawson and Joey’s relationship from a wonderful friendship with romantic undertones to something that was presented as unhealthy and was holding the both of them back. The writers and producers were actually playing right into the hands of the Pacey and Joey fans, and that continued into the finale, where Joey basically dismissed Dawson as being part of her childhood, much like Amy later dismissed her “love” for Colin as being part of her childhood, like Big Bird, in the flashback scene with Ephram in Season Four after Irv passed away.

Let’s face it, after Season One, Dawson and Joey spent more time together apart and estranged then they did together and happy, even as friends, and all us Dawson and Joey fans got was a scene here and there showing that they still had a special connection, and we also got a lot of soulmate talk to string us along. Personally for me, Dawson and Joey were ruined to the point where I gave up on them, and I wasn’t really upset that Pacey and Joey ended up together, because the Dawson and Joey I had loved were basically lost as soon as the first episode of Season Two aired.

Pacey and Joey’s relationship was presented as the more mature and adult relationship, even though Pacey was insanely jealous of Dawson the whole time they were together, and he humiliated Joey at their prom when he broke up with her, but somehow, in the minds of Stupin and Co., they had the better relationship. Granted, my bias against them influenced how I viewed them, but I literally used to cringe at all their cheesy and over the top scenes in Season Four, and I only really warmed up to them in Season Six, because by then I had given up on Dawson and Joey. Pacey and Joey’s relationship was given much more of a chance to grow and prosper than Dawson and Joey’s relationship did, because let’s face it, Dawson and Joey were never really given the chance to actually be a couple. They were only together for a few episodes at the beginning of Season Two, and they started fighting almost immediately, and then Joey broke up with Dawson to “find her something, alone,” only to then “find her something” with Jack, and then they got back together after Jack revealed that he was gay, only to break up again because Joey’s father was caught dealing drugs again, and Joey blamed Dawson, which made no sense whatsoever. Dawson and Joey never got the chance to be a couple again, except for the one time they slept together, which Joey later referred to as “her only one night stand,” which was a real slap in the face to the Dawson and Joey fans. The reason that Joey broke up with Dawson after the one time she slept with him was because he didn’t tell her that he had a girlfriend when they slept together, which was ludicrous, because I would hardly call Natasha his “girlfriend” because she was just some actress he had hooked up with when he was working on a movie.

With the exception of Everwood, all shows like this tend to lose steam after a while as the writers run out of ideas and the actors get jaded and bored (or when the actors who are supposedly playing teenagers start losing their hair ) and start phoning in their performances, and I’ve never seen a show that started out having the characters in High School make a successful transition to the College Years and beyond, again with the exception of Everwood, but Dawson’s Creek really declined precipitously from the promise it showed in Season One.

Jerry D

From the other thread:

Wow, I never knew that about Meredith Monroe. I don't blame her for being angry at how they had treated her. I agree that they should have ended the show after Season Four.

kabous

I am a huge HUGE Buffy fan and even I have to agree that they stumbled when the kids went to college. Even the best writers in the business can't seem to get that one right.

I know Chris Pratt, EVC and GS were a bit older tha n their characters but at least they looked the part. Look how old Roswell's Jason Behr looked in their third season. 18 year old Max looked like he was 35.

I am not saying Everwood was the perfect show but it did a lot of things right and it is / was obvious that everyone involved really cared about the show. The actors cared about their characters. It wasn't just another paycheck for them. I have listened to the season 1 episode commentaries and it is wonderful to hear the writers and producers talk about how much they put into the show.

It makes me appreciate it even more.

Another thing I love about the show is that there are no stupid shipper wars. Of course, I wasn't here when the show first aired but it seems to me that most people wanted Ephram and Amy together and that is something the writers also wanted. It was planned from the beginning and the idea was followed through. There are still arguments over Spuffy or Bangel and the show has been of the air for a decade. I know how passionate the fans are but a good creator / executive producer must not be swayed by who is the "it" couple.

jediwands

You are so right on, Jerry. That is precisely what took place. That is how they decided to produce obstacles for them and in the process, the intention was to show them as holding each other back. That is why they had Joey go with the "I am free" kind of thing in season 3 as she gets together with Pacey. It was so ridiculous. The writers and producers were totally playing into the hands of the PJers. Excellent parallel between Amy and Joey. You are right on about that. It is so sad and ridiculous on Joey's end. You cannot go there when we were given season 1. Season 1 was the anti rest of the series concerning Dawson/Joey. The series simply became a new show once season 3 hit. Season 2 it was the start of the downfall but by season 3, Dawson/Joey, the real Dawson/Joey was dead.

You were way more tolerant than I was, friend, because while I liked some season 6 PJ when they rekindled, all I thought about was how that was planned on being Dawson/Joey stuff but it was James who basically didn't want to be in as many episodes. Thus, they went with Katie and Josh, front and center. I honestly think there was still a chance to repair Dawson/Joey again even as late as season 6 if they would have gone ahead with having an actual romantic relationship after they slept together. That didn't happen though. That was given to Pacey/Joey pretty much because James was probably completely fed up with the show and he simply checked out during the last season.

You know what's weird though? For me? Until the very end I never bought that Joey truly loved Pacey romantically over Dawson. I never bought it. I still felt like she was in love with Dawson. I certainly NEVER bought the insinuation that Joey had been running from Pacey since they broke up in season 4. I never bought it, the way I saw it was she was running from Dawson. That is why the series finale was set up in a way to prove that she finally had stopped running from Dawson. I mean, Kevin had the ending set up, he changed a few scenes to make it Pacey/Joey at the last minute. Even Kevin tried to convey that but obviously changed his mind when Stupin got a hold of him. I still would have accepted a Dawson/Joey ending but mainly because it was the one that was meant to be from the start. I would have complained about what we received in between but I still would have been happy that at least the greatness that was season 1 would have been honored and the right ending took place. I know that seems weird given that I feel the series was a different one in the end. I still would have taken the ending though. Mainly because I could have rewatched season 1 over and over again knowing at least the right ending happened in the end.

Agreed so much. Everwood was the exception. kabous, I so agree that Everwood stayed away from those shipper wars. It was so refreshing. That is because the writers knew how to produce quality and intrigue without having to go there. This show was a gem, it was one of a kind.

Jerry D

I moderated both this board and the Dawson's Creek board before I became the Site Administrator, and moderating this board was like heaven compared to moderating the Dawson's Creek board. There were no shipper wars, and everyone got along and respected one another, which still continues today.

I agree that most people wanted Ephram and Amy together, but there was so much more to Everwood than just their story. All of the characters were well rounded out and got equal air time, and the stories of the adults were just as important as the stories of the teenage characters.

To be sure, there were stories that I didn't like on Everwood, like Andy and Amanda and Ephram and Madison (God knows ) but overall, Everwood stayed a compelling show to watch throughout all of its seasons, and the actors never got jaded and they never phoned in their performances, and in hindsight, it ended its run before it had the chance to decline and become a pale echo of what it was like Dawson's Creek did.

Everwood also had a lot more going for it than Dawson's Creek did, because Dawson's Creek was basically just a teen soap opera, while Everwood was aimed at an older and more mature audience, and the stories it told were more compelling and better written than the schlock on Dawson's Creek.