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Old 01-20-2005, 02:03 PM
  #46
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WILPEN:
I believe there is more than a small element of truth to the idea that Harold tends to live vicariously though his children. Not in the pushy, over-the-top way of the stage mother or the tennis father, but in a more wistful, doting way. His repeated statements about being God's favorite whipping boy (paraphrasing) were only half-joking. And although it's clear his feelings are rooted in love and his heartfelt desire to see that his kids become the best they can be, there is definitely an element of dream fulfillment there, too.
We've been informed that Harold plays some tennis and golf, and we've seen him shoot a few baskets. In fact, we can't really say for sure he didn't play any of those sports in high school or college, even though it's a reasonable assumption. Rose pretty much described him as a band geek. I can visualize him cheering at school sports events wishing he had the talent to be out there. And then, lo and behold, he sires a tall, strong son with the basketball and football talent he never had? Can we blame him for some vicarious living? Absolutely not. That's one reason why Harold was so greatly disappointed when Bright flunked out of football. I think he saw athletic talent as Bright's gift, one that Harold never had. And for Bright to lose his opportunity to pursue his own sporting dreams as a result of poor academics, an area Harold no doubt excelled in, we can see why this affected their relationship so much.
I was amused watching Harold pushing Amy toward Princeton throughout Shoot The Moon because it had supposedly been her dream since she was a little girl and wasn't now. When we found out at the end that Harold had declined to apply there in order to be with Rose, I felt for him. I believe he wanted to experience Princeton through Amy. I also believe, however, that he was completely sincere in believing it was the best place for her to go. Considering his history, though, one does wonder how much of his disappointment at her declining to apply was due to worry about the duration of her relationship with Ephram, and how much was because he wouldn't get to "live" Princeton through her.
Not only has Harold showed signs of living his dreams through his children, he's doing the same thing to some degree through Andy and even Ephram. He's fought his envy of Andy's surgical gift manfully, but it's there. But it's also tinged with admiration and even gratitude. Again, he's watching the manifestation of his dream. That's why Harold can't really fathom Andy giving up what he would have given anything to be.
Although I find it inexplicable that we haven't seen more development of the Harold/Ephram relationship, it's pretty obvious that he likes Ephram and thinks he is good for Amy (in spite of his former description of Ephram as a "future parolee"). The station Ephram has attained in his daughter's life, and even the prospect of having him as a son-in-law, now allows Harold to live out his newly-revealed musical ambitions through Ephram.
I want to state emphatically that I do not view this characteristic of Harold's as a negative thing in any way. When your dreams are not fulfilled, you can either become bitter, or you can make new dreams and move on. Harold made new dreams centering on being a good doctor, a good husband, and a good father. He has succeeded at all three. I, for one, don't begrudge him a little vicarious living.
P.S. I agree that Amy going off to Princeton is a possible scenario. But it would be a huge risk. If the school ever found out about the false essay, or even the forged application, she would be in big trouble. Not only would it get her kicked out of Princeton, but it might blackball her and prevent her from getting in anywhere else. I'm not sure how Princeton would find out, but you never know.

Last edited by MAKRO; 01-20-2005 at 03:03 PM
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Old 01-20-2005, 03:23 PM
  #47
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Honestly...the episode wasn't good overall. everything was depressing and unbearable to watch except for the last Amy/Ephram. Truthfully...I wasn't happy that Amy was still mad with Ephram...the situation was blown out of proportion. But the bright side is..at least they are back on good terms...as in a couple.

btw...i can't stand the thing between Andy and the other woman of a handicapped husband.
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Old 01-20-2005, 03:24 PM
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MAKRO, great post as usual. I love your addition's as to how Harold also has tendencies to vicariously live through Andy and Ephram. So true. I love how you stated it.... "he's watching the manifestation of his dream." Seriously, it's not a coincidence that he not only wanted to be a surgeon but realized he didn't have the hands for it, but also explained in Shoot The Moon, to Ephram, how he also had a love and desire for piano.

I also entirely believe that Harold thinks that Ephram is a very nice fit for Amy now, and in the future. I love to compare his feelings for Ephram now, compared to the first season. While he certainly never disliked Ephram in season 1, I think he always thought something had to be wrong with him if he was Andy's son. I think he would be very pleased and secure with E/A getting married one day. What impresses me the most is the fact that Harold fully knows that Ephram impregnated Madison and yet, he still genuinely approves of Ephram for Amy. That says a lot about how highly Harold thinks of Ephram. Given how Harold has always shown a tendency to hate "town gossip," I'd be surprised if he hasn't thought about what juicy bit of news it would be when everyone would discover that the son of Dr. Brown, impregnated a girl that was a bit older than him, never knew about it until later on as Dr. Brown and even Harold Abbott had prior knowledge about the news but never spilled, and not to mention, Amy Abbott, daughter of Dr. Harold Abbott, is dating and in love with Ephram Brown. Anyway, I'm very impressed that throughout everything, Harold approves of Ephram and given the insane amount of chemistry that Greg and Tom have on the screen together, I am highly disappointed at the limited amount of scenes given to Harold and Ephram. What a shame and they are really missing the boat on furthering this relationship given that most evidence points to (hopefully) a future for E/A.

Also, great point about the Princeton deal. I do wonder if it will ever come out that Ephram wrote Amy's essay and maybe, just maybe, that could be why she ends up coming home? Then again, that situation, like you said, might scar her from getting in anywhere else and I definitely don't see them going there.

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Old 01-21-2005, 12:01 AM
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After reviewing Monday night's episode, I noted something I want to get some input on.
Wasn't it inferred, at least, that Amy came by Ephram's studio to apologize no more than a day or two after their sidewalk confrontation? I know it wasn't the same night, because Andy was home and he wasn't at the time of Amy's "sacrifice" speech.
The reason I'm asking is that in the "sacrifice whine" scene there is a considerable amount of snow on the ground. But in Edna and Irv's sad "separation" scene, just before Amy comes to see Ephram, there isn't a speck of snow to be seen. In fact, everything was green. And nobody looked cold. Does snow melt that fast in Everwood in the winter? Does it stay green through the winter when there's no snow? ? Is Everwood big enough to straddle two weather zones? Does the continuity person deserve a raspberry? Or was that scene, and the others between the two of them, originally intended for an earlier show?
I understand that each episode takes several days (I've heard ten) to shoot, and that they are at the mercy of the weather gods. That could account for the now-you-see-it, now-you-don't snow. But I can't believe it's that green in Utah (or Colorado) in the winter.

P.S. Isn't it about time Ephram got a haircut? He's looking a bit scruffy. Hope he doesn't do it without talking to Amy though. I wouldn't want her to freak out again.
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Old 01-21-2005, 08:11 AM
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MAKRO.. Good observation about the snow to grass scenario. This has been talked about all (Fanbolt, TWoP) over the place regarding the sudden change in weather conditions and the general reasoning is that it was just an incredible error. People are assuming that the scenes were obviously filmed at different time periods and they neglected to catch the different weather conditions, while intergrating these scenes. People are just chalking it up to one big, fat error.

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P.S. Isn't it about time Ephram got a haircut? He's looking a bit scruffy. Hope he doesn't do it without talking to Amy though. I wouldn't want her to freak out again.
Love your sarcasm about Amy freaking over Ephram's hair. Heh, good stuff. Yeah, I also think Ephram is due for a haircut. I don't dislike his hair like some people do, but it is certainly getting a bit out of control. LOL Then again, Amy looks like a supermodel, so maybe the contrast of Ephram looking all scruffy is okay. Nah, he needs a hair cut.
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Old 01-21-2005, 10:07 AM
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Not to get too far afield from Monday night's episode, but one more quick note about Harold's vicarious enjoyment of Ephram's musical gift. When Ephram says in Shoot The Moon "I didn't know you knew music. Do you play?", Harold says "I wanted to, but like with surgery I discovered I had the ear but not the hands". And yet Harold was identified earlier as the "first chair" tuba in his college marching band. I guess you don't need hands as good for the tuba as for the piano.
Incidentally, I've never heard the term "first chair" applied to a marching band before (I don't think chairs can march). In my experience, it usually applies to an orchestra. Whatever.
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Old 01-21-2005, 10:42 AM
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Yeah, I guess you don't need perfect hands for the tuba.. I think you need, most of all, outstanding lung capacity, though.

Regarding Monday's episode. I re-watched it again last night, and on first viewing of the last scene, the "make up" scene, between E/A, I was very disappointed by the lack of physical contact.. I thought even a hug or quick peck would have been nice.. However, after watching it again last night, I've changed my mind. Their "look" to each other was more than sufficient for that scene. Their look was filled with intimacy! First off, they gazed into each other's eyes and lingered there for a split second, and it was such intense eye contact and deep level of love that I felt between these two that was so real and compelling. Yeah, that "look of love" was mighty powerful and I loved every minute of it. Great stuff. Again, it's all about the subtle but amazingly powerful things between these two that make me hopelessly love this couple.

I think the reason after first viewing that I never noticed how powerful they looked at each other in that end scene was because I was watching it with a sense of tension as I didn't really know what was going to transpire, so I just more or less, listened to the words. But, during second viewing, the anxiety was over and I knew what was going on, so I watched it for "everything" and that's where I picked up on, once again, the brilliant acting of Greg/Emily, as they literally developed intimacy between their characters without having to "physically" do so.

I will never get over how much chemistry these two have together. It's unreal. Perfection.

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Old 01-21-2005, 04:42 PM
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I find it interesting that, until most of the way through the big dinner disaster, Harold and Rose had no idea about Ephram's transgression (Harold: "What lie?"). They must have been wondering why Amy was treating Ephram so badly. It's an interesting comment on the current Abbott family dynamic that Amy and her boyfriend could be fighting for a month and not have her parents know about it.
I also find it interesting that Ephram is finally(!) confiding things about his personal life to Andy, something which used to seem unfathomable. I wonder how long that will continue when Ephram finds out Andy didn't confide in him about Madison? Will the "no judging" pact survive?
Lastly, I continue to find it fascinating that Amy and Ephram have been going together for several months, and have been friends for two and a half years, and it seems neither has ever invited the other over for a family dinner (pizza in Ephram's studio doesn't count).
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Old 01-21-2005, 06:57 PM
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Wanted to add

MAKRO, great post about Harold's vicarious living and that it generally doesn't get taken to an unhealthy extreme! I wholeheartedly concur with your bservations and analyses there.

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Old 01-22-2005, 09:04 PM
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MAKRO.. Great observation about Harold/Rose being clueless that E/A were fighting for a month. That is very interesting, indeed. Usually, Amy likes to spill it to Harold quite a bit, whenever things are somewhat rocky in her life. My guess is because she has Hannah now, she is not needing as much support elsewhere. But still, I find it sort of odd that Harold/Rose wouldn't have picked up on the fact that there was something up with E/A. Amy is definitely not known for hiding her emotions, so during this month, I would wager a guess she was certainly not looking happy at the dinner table. Let alone, she was spending every two seconds with Hannah during this time. Harold/Rose know that Amy/Hannah hang out a lot, but I would guess they would wonder why Amy was not going out on "dates" with Ephram on the weekends, etc. Yes, very, very odd that Harold/Rose had no clue what was up with E/A.

Also, wonderful point about Ephram opening up to Andy over the fight with Amy. This makes me all the more uneasy about what is going to happen to this special relationship once the bomb happens. They have worked so hard for this closeness that they have, and it's all going to be destroyed once the bomb explodes. Who knows, maybe it won't be as bad as we are thinking it might be. *prays*

And the family dinner bit.. Yeah, it totally boggles my mind that they have not constantly been at each other's house for dinner. Like you said, it's not like they have only just started to date at the end of season 2. They were friends way before this and it just seems ridiculous that they have not done so. Maybe now, that it seems like they will be spending less time in Ephram's studio (Amy can't study a lick with all that banging on the piano.. LOL) they will be together more at the houses.

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Old 09-23-2017, 11:16 PM
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Amy just ignoring Ephram was really irritating. Its great that they didn’t break up but he doesn’t deserve to be ignored like that. Its not like Ephram cheated on her. I was on Hannah’s side, Amy needed to make a decision about what to do. She needed to talk to him about her feelings and why she was hurt ETC.

Bright is really pissing me off. I get he was trying to be honest with Ephram but to tell him that it was basically over I think was a bit harsh. However, he got back into my good graces when he invited Ephram over for dinner. Trying to help is a good thing. However, Ephram shouldn’t have gone through with it because he was overstepping his bounds. Amy asked for space and he was sneaking his way into seeing her.

The kids are so embarrassing fighting in front of their parents, like WTF. And then later Amy bringing up her issues about not doing what she enjoys? WHAT? That just came out of nowhere to me. I thought this whole feud was about Madison and now its about something else? Amy drives me crazy! She cant bring this up now and whine about it if she’s never brought up other issues. I did like all the focus on them though. I am glad they didnt break up though and that Amy wanted to set more ground rules and that Ephram seemed so happy that she wanted to work things out.

I just love Harold and Andy so much. Their interactions are some of my favorites on the show. Good for Harold telling Andy off! Its annoying to me though that Andy was in the hospital and we didn’t even see Nina or Delia’s reactions!? And then he just gets back with Amanda at the end after everything? HUH?

The Irv and Edna drama felt really forced and strange to me. I don’t really care about them or their storylines… And frankly Irv has pissed me off a lot over the course of the series. He just always seems to be angry about something. The break might be good for them but i find it a bit strange.

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Old 09-24-2017, 05:03 AM
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Amy just ignoring Ephram was really irritating. Its great that they didn’t break up but he doesn’t deserve to be ignored like that. Its not like Ephram cheated on her. I was on Hannah’s side, Amy needed to make a decision about what to do. She needed to talk to him about her feelings and why she was hurt ETC.
I felt sorry for Ephram as well. He did something really stupid, but I do believe Amy took it a little too far, and as you said..she needed to talk to Ephram.


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The Irv and Edna drama felt really forced and strange to me. I don’t really care about them or their storylines… And frankly Irv has pissed me off a lot over the course of the series. He just always seems to be angry about something. The break might be good for them but i find it a bit strange.
I liked Irv less and less as the seasons progressed. He was always angry and Edna couldn't do enough for him.
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Old 09-24-2017, 12:03 PM
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Amy just ignoring Ephram was really irritating. Its great that they didn’t break up but he doesn’t deserve to be ignored like that. Its not like Ephram cheated on her. I was on Hannah’s side, Amy needed to make a decision about what to do. She needed to talk to him about her feelings and why she was hurt ETC.

Bright is really pissing me off. I get he was trying to be honest with Ephram but to tell him that it was basically over I think was a bit harsh. However, he got back into my good graces when he invited Ephram over for dinner. Trying to help is a good thing. However, Ephram shouldn’t have gone through with it because he was overstepping his bounds. Amy asked for space and he was sneaking his way into seeing her.

The kids are so embarrassing fighting in front of their parents, like WTF. And then later Amy bringing up her issues about not doing what she enjoys? WHAT? That just came out of nowhere to me. I thought this whole feud was about Madison and now its about something else? Amy drives me crazy! She cant bring this up now and whine about it if she’s never brought up other issues. I did like all the focus on them though. I am glad they didnt break up though and that Amy wanted to set more ground rules and that Ephram seemed so happy that she wanted to work things out.
This was such forced drama. I hate it. I think they tried to keep up with the theme of the Abbott dinners being interesting because you never know when fighting is going to take place. Amy acted stupidly, Ephram should have never got himself into this position in the first place, and Bright was being Bright. The common connection is stupid Madison even indirectly causing trouble. She wasn't even in this episode yet she was the match that caused the fire.

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I just love Harold and Andy so much. Their interactions are some of my favorites on the show. Good for Harold telling Andy off! Its annoying to me though that Andy was in the hospital and we didn’t even see Nina or Delia’s reactions!? And then he just gets back with Nina at the end after everything? HUH?
You are right. This episode as a rule was very WTF.

Quote:

The Irv and Edna drama felt really forced and strange to me. I don’t really care about them or their storylines… And frankly Irv has pissed me off a lot over the course of the series. He just always seems to be angry about something. The break might be good for them but i find it a bit strange.
I agree.
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Old 09-24-2017, 12:06 PM
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I liked Irv less and less as the seasons progressed. He was always angry and Edna couldn't do enough for him.
I actually agree. I never really liked them when they were supposedly pretty good in season 1. I thought it was weird how he made it known he wanted to leave Everwood, almost as if she owed him something as a result. I also hated, HATED when he faked that heart attack. It was horrible, that was not a joke, sorry Irv. I love Irv the narrator, but Irv around Edna and their relationship as a whole, not so much. That's why when he died I wasn't even all that upset for as bad as it sounds. I feel like Edna will finally be able to spread her wings a little bit.
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Old 10-02-2017, 04:37 AM
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I totally agree with that whole thing ^.

Irv is kind of a random narrator iMO. lol.

Yeah, the whole episode did feel like forced drama.
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