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Old 01-17-2005, 07:55 PM
  #16
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This epsiode was one that I hated and loved both at the same time. I hated all the depressing stuff in it.
A/E (at the beginning... and well through most of the show...): I didn't like that Amy was holding such a grudge, now I didn't see the first show i'll admit (because I'm not home at monday's and forgot to tape it and later forgot to d/l it), but either way, you don't hold a grudge like that with the man you love. It seriously makes me wonder how long they're gonna stay together.

Edna and Irv-NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's all I have to say. They can't break these two up...although i think that he will write a story eventually, about the first couple of year when Andy Brown came to Everwood...the voice overs from the first two seasons could easiliy have been from a book.

Andy and Amanda- okay so this isn't really depressing for her as much as it is for him. She is not nice being sticking him between a rock and a hard place like that. She disgraces the name Amanda

Andy/Harold fighting: again BOOOOO Harold's crossing the line a bit, and Andy's being a bit of an arse, they both are OOC and annoying. Make it go away please!

Andy and the ulcer: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!! that's all i have to say to that although, it would happen with all the stress he's been under, i just didn't like how he took it, yelling at the nurse and all, although again realistic (i'm in denial okay?!)


But of course i loved some things
A/E: Amy finally realizing she needs to not to give up her life for men anymore, no matter how cute they are. And I'm glad she didn't break up with Ephram to do that...the end was good for them

Amy/Hannah- awesome friendship there, for my first ep really getting to see hannah liked her a lot

Hannah/Bright- okay i want this to happen now, that kitchen scene with them was awesome. he totally doesn't know what to think of her and that was cute lol.

Jake-just awesome in this epsiode. Between comforting Edna and Andy that was just awesome. Seriously ....threatening to hug someone if they don't tell you what's wrong...brilliant! (although that is something i do to my male friends or emotinally challenged female friends on a regular basis). the balloons and yoga were a funny touch.

Andy/Ephram : Wow i really like how they portrayed these two tonight together in the hospital....it was a real father and son scene and they really have come a long way. I liked how ephram told andy that he wasn't judging a/a because of the new rule.

So obvoiusly i'm torn on this episode.
-maria
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Old 01-17-2005, 11:34 PM
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Eh {shrug}

Didn't love it. Didn't hate it. Was it me or did this seem like it was half of an hour and a half long episode and they left out the final acts of the storylines and then stretched the 45 minutes they had into an hour?

Edna/Irv - I'm conflicted about this. On a personal level I dislike it. Now that Edna's at Jake's and Irv is no longer narrator and apparently unemployed, I'm very afraid of TPTB phasing them out. That said, what happened between them felt realistic and was well played and thus I found it entertaining. I found it interesting that Edna got upset that Irv didn't appreciate what she had done for him... without asking. It's been implied that Linda was her mom's daughter and Harold Jr was, perhaps, his dad's son. But Irv complaining about how he never asked for an office reminded me of Edna complaining about Harold's new computer system. People usually do have bits of both parents in them, so I liked this uncharacteristic echoing between son and mother.

Amy/Ephram - Also a bit conflicted. I felt it was also well played and definitely in-character for our star teen characters. I was also glad they allowed Amy to be angry/hurt a long time without feeling the need to subject us to weeks of it. But her continuous 'all about me' attitude made this storyline feel like it dragged. And this felt like more of a shifting of gears from one type of relationship impediment to another rather than a resolved storyline. Soaps are fine but I consider shows like Everwood and West Wing better than that and I don't like storlines that stretch out ad infinitum. I like episodes to feel like a finely crafted, *complete* package. Overarching themes=good. Neverending stories=bad. There wasn't a single storyline here I can think of that didn't feel transitional rather than fully fleshed out.

Andy - Come on? How common are bleeding ulcers these days? And OK, at least they mentioned Madison, but they really seemed to play up that the ulcer is a result of Andy/Amanda. It was mean of them to tease us with the prospect of Amanda leaving town... and, honest to God I was wishing Andy would lie to her and tell her it was only temporary, lustful insanity and nothing more so she'd go away. But, back to the melodrama of the collapse... I'm still trying to figure out WHY the writers chose to throw this in there. He didn't *have* to get ulcers. If he did, he didn't *have* to collapse. That also reminds me of a soap... how you can always tell when a woman is pregnant because she always has a dizzy spell. Riiiight. How many pregnant women have *you* seen have a dizzy spell?

Anyway... so OK, apparently Andy *did* have to collapse for some reason. Why at the office in the middle of a fight with Harold? He could have been with a patient. He could have been alone. He could have been home. He could have been at Momma Joy's... etc. Oddly, Ephram then outright states the typical reason such things usually happen on TV shows... so that one or more characters can profess their loving concern. So... was this collapse for the benefit of Andy/Ephram. I don't see it even though they had the closest thing to a mushy scene. It didn't get toooo mushy before it was revealed that Ephram really came to the hospital because he's having problems with Amy. Awwwww {eyes rolling}

So, was the collapse for the benefit of Andy/Harold. They made sure to include Harold's "unforgivable" comment in the "previously" clips. Since we got hardly any Harold/Andy interaction during or after the collapse, that doesn't seem to work either...

Unless even this ulcer thing is a set-up for something yet to come. Like maybe 3 months from now the Madison secret will be revealed and Ephram will be livid and Andy will say something about how it's just his luck the ulcers came 3 months ago instead of now - or some such thing.

So, overall...
1) The 'conclusion' of the Irv/Edna storyline for this episode is that we don't know what's gonna happen with them.
2) The 'conclusion' of the Amy/Ephram storyline for this episode is that we don't know what's gonna happen with them (now that they'll have less time together).
3) The 'conclusion' of the Andy/Amanda storyline is that we don't know what's gonna happen with them.
4) Thus, we can't predict what's gonna happen to the Andy/Harold friendship if Andy continues pursuing the 'unforgivable' with his former patient's wife...

Basically this whole episode amounted to one big teaser... one, hour-long teaser. {sigh}

Still, as I said, I didn't hate it. Just wish there had been a little less form and a little more substance.

-Aquillea

PS: I forgot to add that I was surprised and confused by Ephram showing up at the hospital because I was anticipating some kind of driving home scene (or settling him in at home etc.) between Andy and Harold that would make it clear *why* the writers went with the melodrama of the collapse. I presume Ephram drove Andy home after all??? I really felt jipped out of more of a reaction from Harold.

Last edited by Aquillea; 01-17-2005 at 11:44 PM
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Old 01-17-2005, 11:46 PM
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Although I was less than thrilled with Amy's behavior through much of it (see my post on the "Greenies" thread), there was a lot to like about this episode. Several of the scenes were strong; none of the characters' behavior seemed completely unrealistic; and there were a few welcome moments of levity.
Here's how I saw it:
Edna/Irv: As glad as I was to see these two get some well-deserved screen time, I ache for them. Their dilemma does not seem to have any obvious solution. I see their separation resulting in a downward spiral for Edna as she confronts her loneliness; something she hasn't faced in many years.
Ephram/Bright: It's great to witness the repair of this relationship, not only because Ephram needs a guy friend, but because putting these two together invariably results in some much-needed comic relief. Kudos to Bright for admitting to Amy it was his idea to go see Madison's band. That's what a real friend would do. And the scene at Bright's work was great ("you missed me didn't you").
Bright/Amy: These two are the most entertaining when they're bickering. Their exchanges during the dinner disaster were classic brother/sister moments.
Hannah/Amy: Other than Amy and Ephram getting together, Hannah and the Hannah/Amy friendship are the best new things on the show this season. From an almost classic wallflower, Hannah has blossomed into the type of friend anyone would be lucky to have. And, in her own right, she is becoming one of the most interesting and well-rounded characters on the show. And I liked the way she was sticking up for Ephram and calling Amy on her treatment of him. Please make her a permanent fixture.
Harold/Andy: I have been amused at Harold's stuffiness in the past. But he has every right to be appalled at Andy's relationship with Amanda on both moral and ethical grounds. This relationship will be fascinating to watch in the coming weeks as Andy continues his "unforgivable" behavior. I will also be interested in the ramifications of Andy's "I brought you into this practice as a favor, you arrogant..." remark.
Hannah/Bright: This is so ready to happen. The "sandwich" scene was wonderful. I think the process of her penetration of Bright's cluelessness has definitely begun. She brings so much to the table that would be of benefit to him.
Andy/Ephram: The hospital scene was one of the best ever between these two, and well-served to show Ephram's growing up. I loved the "no judging" remark, and can't help but wonder it that will hold when the Madison bomb drops.
Andy/Amanda: I still hate this whole storyline and what it forces us to believe about Andy. I just don't see anything there which makes it believable for him to abandon his scruples and risk such damge to his reputation and other relationships. I was amazed Ephram wasn't more upset.
Jake: I'm still not a big fan, mostly due to him taking screen time away from characters I prefer. But I've been complaining about the lack of humor on the show, and he does bring that. The balloons and the yoga chanting were classic.
Nina: Who?
Delia: Who?
And, finally:
Amy/Ephram: I had some problems with Amy's treatment of Ephram (at least until the end), but there were some great scenes between them tonight. At the beginning of the dinner scene, we saw the best Amy "visual daggers at Ephram" look since the lunch table scene in The Price Of Fame in Season 1. The sidewalk scene was powerful even though I felt Amy was being bratty. I was glad the mature Amy showed up at the end, and that they didn't break up (although I would like to have seen a more stronger vote of confidence than her "we'll see how it goes"). I think we saw it confirmed they are both determined to try to forge ahead in the development of their relationship. I hope it doesn't take long for the tenderness and passion between them to return.
All in all, almost worth the seven week wait.
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Old 01-18-2005, 08:10 AM
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This may sound rather trite and not terribly unsightful but I was bored. To me it seemed like the writers just mailed the episode in and all the characters just jogged in place.

Hannah and Bright seemed awkward around each other and to have zero chemistry when together.

Ephram and Amy's catfighting has been extended so long that one can only yawn and roll ones eyes.

Andy and Amanda have cut off the affair or have they? Especially from the previews I didnt come away convinced.

Edna and Irv broke up. Yet a relationship that was barely shown and was rather peripheral to everything else was the most momentous event. And it's probably temporary anyway.

Harold was a bright spot as usual. Maybe it's time for the show to forget that Treat is the star and center the series around the Abbotts instead of the Browns.

And I agree very much about the show getting too serious. It reminds me of what happened with Party of Five where they just piled so many problems on everyone that it became unwatchable (I loved the skit snl did making fun of it where all the characters would just whine stuff like "I'm an alchoholic!" "I've got cancer!"). It's fallen into the trap of some shows that straddle the line between comedy and drama. It chose a side (drama) and has stuck too firmly to it disrupting it's proper balance.
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Old 01-18-2005, 01:23 PM
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Awesome episode!

Andy/Amanda: Totally hate this storyline. I don't like Amanda at all so I guess that doesn't help.

Ephram/Amy: They are so cute, even when they're fighting. I am glad Amy is re-evaluating her priorities. I would love to see Ephram making a little effort the way she has been!

Bright/Ephram:SOO glad they are friends again.

Andy/Ephram: I loved that Ephram went to see him in the hospital.

Bright/Hannah: I totally saw something from both side during the kitchen scenes. They will develop something, mark my words!

Edna/Irv: *wahhhh* I saw it coming, but I hoped they wouldn't go there......
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Old 01-18-2005, 03:11 PM
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As much as I appreciate the way the Everwood writers allow some things to happen off-screen, as opposed to thinking we need to see every little thing that happens, I would have liked very much to see the interaction between Amy and Hannah which took place immediately before Hannah's scene in the kitchen with Bright.
Let's face it; Amy has always tended toward the self-absorbed. I've always felt that whatever sacrifices she made in the name of her previous relationships were made more for her own reasons than as a genuine gesture of love for her partner. It's like she's been in love with love, instead of being in love with her partner, and that ideal made her sacrifices feel noble. I always felt that when she finally hooked up with Ephram it would be different; that she would bring a more mature perspective to their relationship, and make her investments in it accordingly. Apparently, this was not the case. She did exactly what her father accused her of always doing; she martyred herself by giving up everything else in her life, heedless of the fact that her actions were neither requested nor expected. Her holding resentment against Ephram for this was inexcusable. And letting him twist in the wind for over a month believing her cold shoulder was due completely to his deception was unconscionable.
I applaud loudly the fact that she has seen the light, but now she seems determined to go completely in the opposite direction, dialing down the priority of her relationship drastically in favor of regaining parts of her life which she was never asked to give up in the first place. She's placed the relationship in the "we'll see how it goes" category. She's using words like "maybe", and "I have to do this on my own". This again is unfair to Ephram. He wasn't consciously trying to prevent Amy from doing anything that was important to her.
The worst part of this is that she gave no visible sign during the "apology" scene at the end that she was still in love with Ephram, or even still deeply emotionally involved in their relationship at all. Don't young lovers who have just made up kiss or cuddle? Maybe she feels unable to demonstrate any intimacy until she feels she has her life back, but can't she do both at once? Regain her outside interests and be in love simultaneously. If she can't, their relationship is in big trouble. Even Ephram won't stand for such limited affection for long.
That's why I wish we had gotten to see Amy and Hannah having their heart-to-heart. Seeing Amy cry and obsess would have re-assured me that she was still heavily invested.

Also, after reviewing last night's episode, I find myself somewhat curious about Amy's conception of time. If, as she said, she had given up "everything" for the relationship, why were grafts necessary to calculate time available for Ephram? If she wasn't involved in any extra-curricular activites, why was her time short to the point of going to bed two hours later than previously? She always seemed to have time for Hannah, and for family movie nights, etc. Also, her statement that the two of them could never have made it so far if both of them had tried to maintain schedules like Ephram's. Well, why not? Isn't the amount of time together available in a relationship keyed to the schedule of the busiest of the two people? So, if both try to maintain the same type of schedule, isn't the available together time the same as it is if one is less busy than the other?
Just curious.
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Old 01-18-2005, 03:16 PM
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Okay, back to write some more detailed comments about the episode. I was very pleased with this episode for the most part. I saw glimpses of a season 1 feel to this episode that had been virtually non-existent in the prior season 3 episodes.

I also must mention again how amazed I am by the extraordinary chemistry between Greg/Emily. It is so ever present and it literally pulls me in with such a force, that I am instantly in "melt mode" while watching them. Their on screen presence is absolutely mesmerizing to me. They have the full package, but one thing I will note is their eyes. You can feel the E/A love purely based on their eyes. Their eyes speak a thousand words. They are just all about beauty together.

Now, for some episode comments..

Ephram/Amy: I honestly didn't have any problem with how Amy acted. She had every right to be pissed off. Ephram was moronic in his decision making and subsequent lie. Amy had every right to produce chilly conditions in their relationship. I know if I were in her position, I would certainly feel the same way. As far as the issue of Amy having to give up things, sure, she unjustly pegged the blame on Ephram, but I easily acknowledged that as mostly being fueled by her intense anger towards the lie. Once she was able to have that blow out with Ephram at the dinner table and was able to get out her jealousy/anger about the lie, followed by the initial conversation outside his house, she could then move on from that jealousy/anger/the lie and then think a little more clearly, which she then, went to Ephram's and apologized for having blamed him for the giving up things issue. The only thing that did bother me was the lack of intimacy once they made up. They have been chilly for one month, which would infer that they have lacked any physical closeness during this time. And for two people that are so in love with each other, I would have thought that at least a kiss or two would have been realistic instead of a "look" and Amy touching his leg for a split second.

Dinner scene: Perfect.. Amy's stone cold look at Ephram told the story. This girl was pissed off to the highest degree, and rightfully so, I might add. I am so glad that during this scene, she was able to get out her anger and frustration even if it was in a somewhat immature way. I didn't mind because I loved the real and raw emotion coming from her. I also loved Bright admitting that he was in on that night with Ephram. I was laughing whenever she told Bright/Ephram that she was happy that they were friends again because now there are two idiots for the price of one. Great line. I also thought it was funny to see clueless Ephram actually think that he would sort of be off the hook because Bright was involved in the lie. Heh. Nope, Amy was not having any of that. Anyway, the dinner scene, for me, was fun to see because Amy was able to get out all her anger/jealousy about the lie. I loved how she told Ephram to leave and make an effort with Madison. Of course, she didn't mean it, but it was all about raw emotion and something that a typical teen girl would say. Loved it.

Where was Delia and Nina? Oh yeah, back in that infamous closest that they have been sharing with Irv throughout this season. Seriously, totally contrived that Nina wouldn't be at the hospital with Andy. They needed to further along the disgusting A/A storyline so that's why they kept Nina away. Speaking of A/A... At least Andy knows it's morally wrong but he is still way too weak to resist. Amanda is all about trying to get into Andy's pants at any cost. She seems to have little, if any, guilt about cheating on her husband. Sickening.

Bright/Hannah: How cute are they? Adorable. That kitchen scene was superb. This scene convinced me that they are on their way towards romance in the future. Hannah's longing look to Bright had me cheering for Bright to reciprocate the look back. However, I saw Bright looking at her in a way that I have never seen before as she walked away and told him in a joking manner to get his own sandwich. LOL I loved their cute, little banter going on. I can't wait to see their friendship and probable romance develop.

Amy/Hannah: Love them. Their friendship is such a beautiful thing. I love how Amy is still trying to bring up HD but once Hannah tells her to back off, Amy will stop with the concern and let it go. It shows how much Amy deeply cares for Hannah. I also love how Hannah told Amy point blank that she needed to communicate better with Ephram regarding their fight. I also love how Hannah is a full fledged E/A shipper. Hannah genuinely believes that E/A are "it" for each other and that they are meant to be. I love Hannah and the A/H friendship.

Andy/Harold: Harold was completely in line with ripping Andy for his disgusting relationship with Amanda. I was also disappointed that we didn't get another Andy/Harold scene as a follow up to their fight, but something tells me we will be getting more to come from these two.

Andy/Ephram: FINALLY! A heartfelt moment between these two this season! That hospital scene was well done. I loved how with very few words, Ephram communicated how much Andy meant to him. I also thought Ephram's words were interesting.. Realizing how much someone means to you whenever they get sick.. Something also tells me that we haven't seen the end of Andy's health problems and another trip to the hospital just might be what saves the E/Andy relationship once Madisongate errupts.

Bright/Ephram: So glad these guys are friends again. Bright is soooooo much happier whenever he has his best friend in his life. I just love these two "idiots."

Edna/Irv: Heartbreaking. So real and believable. For as much as it saddens me to see these two take a break, I fully understand why they need to do so.

Overall, I really liked this episode. I loved the integration of a bit of humor to this episode. It is far from getting that season 1 humor back in there, of course, but at least it seemed like a start in this episode. A very good start to the second half of the season, I thought.

Last edited by The Apt; 01-18-2005 at 04:16 PM
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Old 01-18-2005, 04:03 PM
  #23
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WILPEN:
I'm going to have to register a rare disagreement with you regarding Amy's behavior. Of course she had every right to be mad at Ephram for lying to her, but if she wanted to get that anger out why did she have to wait for over a month and do it at a family dinner? She saw him at school every day, and could have gone to see him at home any time. And once she finally got around to venting, she still let Ephram, and her entire family, believe it was still all about the lie. I do not view this as acceptable behavior. As far as I'm concerned, the minute her unreasonable resentment towards Ephram for the sacrifices she felt she had made for their relationship became part of the equation (which I'm guessing would have come immediately upon receiving the shock of finding out he had lied, especially about Madison), her allowing him to twist in the wind for so long believing it was all about the lie was an act of dishonesty arguably on the level with his deception. Remember, this is a girl who freaks out whenever she thinks someone close to her is hiding something or doesn't talk to her about something. Apparently, she doesn't hold herself to the same standards.
Also, exactly how mad did she have a right to be about Ephram's lie? As much as we all like to tout the importance of honesty in a relationship, the fact is that even the best of relationships are riddled with lies. If anyone doesn't believe that, watch the movie "Liar Liar" some time. Here are a few universal ones off the top of my head:
-- No, honey, that outfit does NOT make you look fat.
-- That was delicious, honey. Is there any more?
-- I love the new curtains honey. They're much nicer than the new fishing rod I was going to buy with that money.
What makes a lie destructive to a relationship is its intent. Well, how nefarious was Ephram's intent? He wasn't going to a crack house. He wasn't going to get a piercing. He wasn't going to a cathouse. And, he wasn't going to have an affair. He was going to see his old girlfriend out of curiosity, and had the sense to feel guilty about it. Was what he did wrong? Of course. Did he confess for all the wrong reasons? Absolutely. Did Amy have a right to be mad? Definitely. But for how long? As far as I'm concerned, after giving it a few days to let her initial anger subside, she had a responsibility to decide immediately whether to forgive him and move on (perhaps remembering that she hasn't always been completely honest with Ephram), or break up with him. To tell him she accepted his apology and then give him the cold shoulder for weeks without bringing up the additonal factors in her behavior was unfair. In my neighborhood, if you accept the apology, you start moving on. Even Hannah called Amy on this, saying she should break up with him or move on, but not to keep avoiding him. And to TALK with him, not just keep stewing about it; advice Amy found it impossible to follow. Withholding love is just as damaging to a relationship as dishonesty. I admit I was disturbed by the lack of any sense of intimacy in their final scene. I can understand Ephram being leery about demonstrating anything like passion right now (he has to still be on eggshells and terrified he would be rejected), so it was up to Amy to initiate any kissing, etc. The fact that she didn't makes me fearful that she will prove incapable of being in love and recovering her outside life at the same time. Right now, I'm basing my hopes on one scene in last week's trailer.
I enjoyed, as always, the rest of your comments.

Last edited by MAKRO; 01-18-2005 at 04:16 PM
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Old 01-18-2005, 04:52 PM
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MAKRO, as per usual, your posts are outstanding and you make excellent points. I do see what you are saying, however, for whatever reason, I feel like Amy's actions were still mostly fueled by the lie. It does baffle me as to why it took her over a month to let out her anger, let alone, do so, at a family dinner. I think that she was pissed at Bright for inviting Ephram and setting up this obvious E/A "meeting" without her prior knowledge, and it was at this time that she decided to let loose and get out her anger. I think it ticked her off that Ephram was acting like everything was peachy at dinner and that angered her even more. I'll admit, my heart ached for Ephram at the dinner table, as well as the entire episode, as it was so blatently obvious what pure panic this guy was in while even remotely thinking about the possibility of Amy breaking up with him. But, I feel like the more Ephram tried to act like everything was "okay," as he was nervous about the possibility of breaking up, the more Amy was turned off at trying to discuss things with him. I think Ephram would have been better suited with being frank and telling Amy just how much he loves her, that he has absolutely no romantic feelings for Madison anymore, does not want to get back together with her, and ONLY wants to be with Amy. He never really said these things as he figured that the acting normal bit seemed like the better option. I think he should have definitely told her the above things and reassured her of everything instead of going the normalcy route as it certainly seemed to only enrage Amy further. I think if he would have maybe confronted the lie in a more agressive way, then Amy would have opened up more about everything else that was on her mind.

Quote:
As far as I'm concerned, the minute her unreasonable resentment towards Ephram for the sacrifices she felt she had made for their relationship became part of the equation (which I'm guessing would have come immediately upon receiving the shock of finding out he had lied, especially about Madison), her allowing him to twist in the wind for so long believing it was all about the lie was an act of dishonesty arguably on the level with his deception.
You make an excellent point, but I'm still not too sure exactly when it was that Amy started to become of aware of the sacrifices issue. It very well could have been like you said.. right away. However, in her conversations with Hannah, all it seemed like was the LIE was the big thing that she was so pissed off about first and foremost. Remember how she told Hannah at school that the thought of Ephram going to see Madison made her want to punch him? Obviously, it seems as if the lie was the front and center thing, at least in her conversations with Hannah.

Quote:
To tell him she accepted his apology and then give him the cold shoulder for weeks without bringing up the additonal factors in her behavior was unfair.
Totally concur. I will always be puzzled as to why it took her so long to come around, and why she even accepted his apology in the first place, if it still bothered the hell out of her, let alone, there also being other factors added into the equation that resulted in her chilly behavior. But then again, if you listen to what Bright said, Amy is famous for holding grudges and that's the way she ticks. Good or bad, Bright did point out that it was in Amy's nature to do so.

Quote:
Withholding love is just as damaging to a relationship as dishonesty.
So true. It was killing Ephram inside to see Amy reject him. That part really did make me want to shake Amy and tell her to open up to him with her thoughts and feelings. I am really glad that she finally did so. Better late then never, I suppose.

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The fact that she didn't makes me fearful that she will prove incapable of being in love and recovering her outside life at the same time.
See, for whatever reason, I have a different take on this. I almost think that even though she didn't initiate any intimacy, at this moment, doesn't mean she is incapable of doing so in the future. Even though it did tick me off that they didn't share a kiss or two after they essentially worked things out, I guess I do chalk it up to it still being a bit premature, considering they just got through a tough moment in their relationship. But, I do have optimism that because of their talk and working things out, I believe that there will be a lot more balance in their relationship, now that Ephram is going to loosen up his schedule more in order for Amy to work on some things of her own. I was actually very happy to see that Ephram was willing to make some adjustments to his schedule for Amy. Because at the beginning of their relationship, it really was Amy adjusting for Ephram. Amy followed him to NYC, Amy gave him time and space at the beginning until he figured out if he even had time for her, and she also completely adjusted her schedule to suit his piano schedule. I was glad to see that there will now be some balance here. I do believe that Amy is right on that if they break up, Ephram still has everything and she would have nothing, and that scared the hell out of her. I don't see it as Amy lessening the importance of her relationship with Ephram now that she wants to concentrate on some of her interests. I actually look at this new balance as a demonstration of a very mature and healthy relationship. In fact, I see it as one of the most mature young love relationships on tv.

Call me naive, but I do look at this new change in the E/A relationship as a good thing for the both of them. I also see Princetongate as not being that big of a bomb now because I do think that Amy will see this as more of a loving thing Ephram did for her now that she even admitted that she initially didn't see what Ephram was trying to tell her during the application time about the "what if's." So, if anything, I feel less nervous about Princetongate.

I do think you bring up some excellent points, MAKRO, and while I am cutting Amy more of a break than you are, I certainly see what you are saying. Like I said, call me naive, but I do have more optimism in their relationship after last night's episode. I don't look at it as Amy potentially pulling away from their relationship. Quite the opposite, actually. I also think that once Madisongate occurs, now that they will be on a "more balanced" field, they will be stronger than ever and able to withstand the bomb in a much better way.

Last edited by The Apt; 01-18-2005 at 08:01 PM
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Old 01-18-2005, 07:10 PM
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WILPEN:
Well stated as usual. I'll pitch in again on just a few points, then forever hold my peace.
I believe that your reasoning about why Amy "went off" at the dinner is perfectly valid as to why she did it then instead of waiting any longer. There was certainly sufficient provocation as you suggest. But I don't see that as justification about why she didn't do it earlier. If it was really all about the lie, why wait a month. Wouldn't she have been the maddest right after she found out? She could have, and in my opinion would have, called him on the carpet right after the initial shock had worn off. She still could have done her Amy-like grudge-holding after that. But her not doing so, claiming to accept his apology, and yet continuing with the cold shoulder was wrong.
Also, although she never stated it to anyone (that we saw), it defies belief that Amy only started thinking about, and resenting, her sacrifices weeks after Ephram's deception was revealed to her. Whatever sacrifices she felt she made for their relationship, she was aware of making them as she did so. It was the shock from Ephram's lie, and her sudden (and overdue) realization that perhaps their love wasn't eternal, that triggered her resentment, however justified, over what she had given up. She even said this. It was the lie that triggered it, not a blinding revelation several weeks later. That's why I feel that her allowing Ephram, her family, and Hannah to believe it was still all about the lie was wrong.
As far as the future of the relationship is concerned: I totally agree that IF Amy finds herself capable of balancing her relationship with the rest of her life, everything will be okay. A relationship where both individuals have full lives, and whose compromises to the relationship are roughly equal has the best chance of succeeding, and, in their case, to survive any bombshells that come along. My only question is whether she will prove capable of pursuing her outside interests while still giving the relationship, and Ephram, what they deserve. Since I don't seek out spoilers, I have nothing to go on here other than the hope that she can do it. I know Ephram can. I am just looking forward to the return of their passion and tenderness. A relationship needs that, too.
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Old 01-18-2005, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Wilpen
Ephram still has everything and she would have nothing, and that scared the hell out of her.
Perfectly summed up what I wanted to say. I'm going to jump into this discussion without invitation, hope you don't mind. From personal experience, I know that when you get mad at someone for doing something, you aren't always mad for the reason you belieive you are. Your mind gets clouded by the more timely issue and you can't address the other issue unless you talk through things with the person you are mad at. To go back to your quote, I don't think Amy realized that she had nothing until Hannah called her on it.

I am a huge Ephramy supporter, but one thing their relationship lacks is communication. I'll leave it to the fact that I am not a normal 18 year old, but I always talk my problems out with my girlfriend when things occur. If Ephram had made Amy talk to him and they actually talked their way through the problem, this situation would have blown over. I think that after Hannah did 'the talk' it made Amy focus in and really think about her problem and she realized that it wasn't entirely about Ephram. Her problem was with herself. She was no longer blinded by the anger and saw that before should could lessen her anger at Ephram, she had to stop hating what she had done.

Once you realize those things, it is a lot easier to work through the problems. Still, I wonder what Ephram had been doing for a month. If he had been upfront with her and talked things through, without being afraid of her, this would have been resolved. I'll edit out the word, but one thing I have learned is you can't let people dwell on their anger. It only leads to resentment. You have to call them on their "shizzle" and then talk things through. He was so afraid that she'd dump him that he skirted around the issue without tackling it head on. I'm actually more ashamed of him letting her control him for a month then I am at the fact that he lied to her. Blarg.

Derek
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Old 01-18-2005, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by MAKRO
But I don't see that as justification about why she didn't do it earlier. If it was really all about the lie, why wait a month. Wouldn't she have been the maddest right after she found out? She could have, and in my opinion would have, called him on the carpet right after the initial shock had worn off. She still could have done her Amy-like grudge-holding after that. But her not doing so, claiming to accept his apology, and yet continuing with the cold shoulder was wrong
Good point, and off the top of my head, I can come up with two reasons as to why she didn't go off initially. One being that Ephram didn't do everything in his power to make her reassured as to why he went to see Madison's band. I would have loved to have seen Ephram reassure her in a very bold way so that she could completely understand that he was not doing this out of any other reason but curiosity and stupidity. Not about yearning for Madison or falling out of love with Amy. I think the comments she made at the dinner table proved that she was still very insecure about Madison whenever she told Ephram sarcastically that he sure only focuses on rock concerts, as well as the go and make an effort with Madison comment. Heck, even the punching him in the face comment to Hannah proved that she was so not over the lie and her insecurities regarding Madison. So, whatever apology Ephram gave, that we, unfortunately, never saw, was definitely not reassuring enough for Amy. So, while I can see Ephram's apology sincere and convinced Amy enough of how sorry he was, thus she accepted it.. However, he still didn't do a good job of reassuring her of everything, thus, her anger lingered and she held it within herself, until she was at a boiling point. Another reason I can think of as to why Amy would not immediately go with her anger right away was Hannah. At the time, Amy didn't even want to deal with Ephram initially telling her about the lie because of her current preoccupation with finding out about Hannah possibly having the gene for HD. So, I am thinking that Amy was very distracted with Hannah during this time, thus, she could have sort of put her relationship with Ephram on the back burner and just pacified it with an acceptance of the apology he gave her, but really wasn't even attempting to really deal with Ephram and the core of their relationship because of Hannah. Hannah even stated how much time they were spending together. I think she even used the word daily.

Quote:
It was the lie that triggered it, not a blinding revelation several weeks later. That's why I feel that her allowing Ephram, her family, and Hannah to believe it was still all about the lie was wrong.
That's definitely a good point. But again, I am still so cloudy on the exact moment that Amy realized the lie triggered her revelation. But I totally get your point that if she did have this immediately in the back of her mind, she should have shared it with Ephram way before the time that she did. Then again, we go back to the fact that I feel like she was still not over the lie, and there was suppressed anger about that, and everything was just all over the place with her that it can be kind of difficult to actually know when and what was going on in her head during this time. It would have been nice to have seen a flashback or two regarding Ephram's apology, etc. Instead of the horrific flashbacks that hardly anyone cares about with A/A.

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My only question is whether she will prove capable of pursuing her outside interests while still giving the relationship, and Ephram, what they deserve. Since I don't seek out spoilers, I have nothing to go on here other than the hope that she can do it. I know Ephram can. I am just looking forward to the return of their passion and tenderness. A relationship needs that, too.
Great point. Especially, given of what we know about Amy. She is known for having extreme tunnel vision as she only focuses on one thing at a time so finally trying to have balance in her life could definitely prove to be very trying. I also completely agree that I am also awaiting the return of passion and intimacy to their relationship. I have faith it will return.

ergo.. Of course you can jump into the discussion at any time. And what great points you make. I also completely concur that Amy definitely had clouded thoughts in her head and that very well could have prevented her from sorting through exactly what she was subconsiously feeling. Not to mention the huge shock she was given about her best friend possibly having the gene for HD. I also completely agree that the talk she had with Hananh really enabled her to sort through everything and understand what was running around in her brain.

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He was so afraid that she'd dump him that he skirted around the issue without tackling it head on. I'm actually more ashamed of him letting her control him for a month then I am at the fact that he lied to her.
Excellent point. I completely concur. He did seem so scared and unwilling to boldly dive into the issue. I honestly feel like his timidness only enhanced Amy's unwillingness to work through things. If he was more agressive and less afraid, I do believe things could have been worked out much sooner and he wouldn't have appeared to be "hiding" from Amy and essentially allowing her to control any and all situations.

Last edited by The Apt; 01-18-2005 at 08:40 PM
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Old 01-18-2005, 08:41 PM
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You know what upsets me the most about this whole situation?

Yes, I saw glimmers of Season 1 in this episode. The lighter comedy mixed into the drama was a shoutout to what the show is supposed to be and I hope it will go even farther back to where it was. Still, what upsets me is in Season 1 (and even 2) whenever I read rationalizations about the characters, it never sat in the back of my mind that their choices were slightly unrealistic in a sense. We can only wish that this episode is the pivot back to better writing and a more focused drama. I think the show got too muddled down with so many characters, but more importantly, I miss the characters that do believable things. The Ephram we all grew to love wouldn't have gone to see Madison. The Bright we knew wouldn't have encouraged him seeing as how protective Bright was of Amy. I can't say Amy has been out of character, but I still feel she was written slightly off this week. The Andy we knew would have corrected the situation with Amanda by telling her "No." at the end of the episode and she would have left. Everyone makes mistakes. It's called being human, but the Everwood characters we loved all strived to correct those mistakes. Most of the time, they did it wholeheartedly. I fail to believe that Ephram wouldn't have attacked with a more earnest apology. His past endeavors and just the preview of next week shows that. His eagerness to become a better boyfriend is off-putting simply because this couldn't have been a spontaneous gesture. Where was he for the last month? Why didn't he start before Amy apologized. Yes, it's easier to say you'll do better after they truly forgive you, but it means more if they truly forgive you because you promised to do better.

If that is coherent I'll be amazed.
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Old 01-19-2005, 03:30 AM
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Love these lively discussions!
What the heck, I'll jump in and stir the pot again.
I'm not saying it was atypical of Amy, who has always been something of a drama queen, but if I were Ephram I would secretly (not aloud, dummy) consider Amy's almost-tearful statement that, if their relationship ended, he would have everything and she would have nothing as melodramatic nonsense.
First of all, Ephram is hardly guaranteed a career as a pianist. Leaving the unknown (to them) Madisongate disaster out of it, what if he doesn't make it into a conservatory? What if he develops Carpal Tunnel, or hurts his hands and can't play, or teach, at all? Having concentrated strictly on the piano for so long, without developing any other career interests, he has put all of his eggs in one basket. That is hardly "having everything".
As for Amy having "nothing" if they crash and burn? The intensity of her statement "I'll have nothing", (as opposed to "I've missed out on....") infers she is talking about things related to career potential, college acceptance, or at the very least the pursuance of a life-long hobby, not just missing out on some after school fun. So, what in these areas has she actually "sacrificed" on the altar of her relationship?
She applied to eight schools each world famous for their academic and/or arts programs. Having to "settle" for any of them in lieu of Princeton would not exactly be having nothing. And she certainly didn't express any fear that a lack of senior year extra-curriculars would hurt her chances for acceptance (a lack of junior year extras is another matter, but she can't blame that on her relationship).
Before the sudden revelation about her sacrifices, she didn't seem concerned that a lack of one year of newspaper or yearbook in high school would keep her from taking journalism at Columbia. Wouldn't a journalism degree from Columbia pretty much guarantee someone a career in the field? So, did she "sacrifice" a potential journalism career for her relationship? I don't think so. Nor do I think she sacrificed any potential future in foreign service by electing not to participate in Youth Government, or whatever it was. No, what she "sacrificed" in these instances was some senior year fun. Not insigificant, and I'm sad for her for missing it, but hardly worthy of an "I'll have nothing" statement. In fact, as a high school girl in love, it seems time restrictions on her social life with her partner would have more of an emotional impact than missing some debate on the two party system.
That leaves dance. I appreciate her passion for dance, and I hope she returns to the enjoyment of it, but does she actually see ballet as a potential career? The trailer for next week's episode would indicate she does. But on what grounds? If she had the passion, drive, courage, and talent to be a professional ballerina, she wouldn't be at Peak County High at all. As the child of a doting, and financially comfortable, family she would be firmly ensconced in a professional prep school (and probably would have been for several years), just like Emily was in real life; starting at age twelve. Does she really think approximately two years in a high school program conducted by the town flake takes the place of years of professional training? And how good was she even in the high school program? By the time of Colin's (first) surgery, she had never had a solo performance. I don't immediately recall her pursuing dance again until after she broke up with Tommy, and I don't remember her being featured in any recitals after that (admittedly, my Season 2 knowledge is limited). If she fails to make it as a professional, is that really the result of "sacrificing" one year in a high school program in favor of her relationship? I don't see it. In fact, if she were to continue to believe that, Ephram should conclude she is a whacko and dump her. I hope she continues to pursue dance on the college level, or just as an important hobby. But I don't see where she has "sacrificed" any career potential.
What Amy has "sacrificed" for her relationship is some senior year fun, and maybe a bit of sleep. And on a more ethereal level, maybe a feeling of equality with Ephram. If she believes otherwise, she is deluding herself. Although to Amy her perception of what she sacrificed is more important than what logic says she did (or didn't). But I would have trouble buying that if I were Ephram.
And does anyone else find it interesting that when she said "I'll have nothing", she wasn't referring to not having him? Ephram very poignantly refuted her statement that he would have everything by saying he wouldn't have her. But she was more concerned with having something to fall back on. I would have liked to see her list him among the things she wouldn't have.
The trailer for next week seems to indicate (remembering that spoilers to not always reflect accurately) that Amy will be unsuccessful in entering the professional dance program. If this happens, will she believe it is a result of her "sacrifice"? I hope not. I hope it would serve to steer her in another direction, one she wouldn't have to "sacrifice" to be with Ephram. If this happens, I believe these two will make it.

Last edited by MAKRO; 01-19-2005 at 03:42 AM
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Old 01-19-2005, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ergo3
I think the show got too muddled down with so many characters, but more importantly, I miss the characters that do believable things. The Ephram we all grew to love wouldn't have gone to see Madison. The Bright we knew wouldn't have encouraged him seeing as how protective Bright was of Amy. I can't say Amy has been out of character, but I still feel she was written slightly off this week. The Andy we knew would have corrected the situation with Amanda by telling her "No." at the end of the episode and she would have left. Everyone makes mistakes. It's called being human, but the Everwood characters we loved all strived to correct those mistakes.
First off, your post was entirely coherent. And I couldn't agree more with your points. I completely concur that the show has gotten way too bogged down with so many characters. I miss the constant theme of the "foursome" of Andy/Ephram/Harold/Amy of season 1, especially. Whatever was going on around them, and as we know, there was a lot going on, the foursome was always kept at the core of the show. Berlanti has said in the season 1 DVD that the heart of the show is this foursome. Well, why has it been so choppy in season 3? This foursome is certainly not shown in a "together" way as the characters seem to be all over the place and the storylines are way too individualized, at times, very contrived, and closed off. I pray that they get back on track to what the heart of this show is all about. My guess is the pathetic, lingering, Madisongate is what has jumbled up season 3 to a confused mess, at times. I pray that once this bomb explodes (hurry up Berlanti) things will have more of an order and season 1 tone.

You other point is also absolutely true. The characters are doing unbelievable things that really trouble me and make me wonder if I am watching the same show. Ephram would ultimately have passed on seeing Madison's band, Bright wouldn't have pressed and encouraged it, and while Amy has been pretty much, "Amy," this entire season, I also agree that she was off this week, slightly. Andy would also never have continued on with this horrendous affair with Amanda. And back to Ephram.. I also think he was OOC in this past episode, because I do believe that he would have taken a more aggressive approach in his apology to Amy instead of being so passive about it. Would season 1 or 2 Ephram have been that passive and let things be so chilly for one month? Absolutely not. He would have probably been at her house every night throwing pebbles at her window in trying to get her attention so she could clearly understand and be reassured of any/all insecurities. Never would he walk around with a depression face, telling Andy and Bright that he is pretty much terrified that the relationship is over. Nope, the Ephram we know would have not been passive. He would have gone right to the source, the love of his life, and told her repeatedly, until she fully understood, everything that needed to be conveyed.

MAKRO.. I know we should stay away from double posting, but I know my response to your post is going to be long, lol, so I will make a new post in response to you.

Last edited by The Apt; 01-19-2005 at 08:41 AM
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