jediwands

MAKRO, excellent points, as usual. I will also completely agree that Amy was being a bit over dramatic about having nothing and Ephram having everything. Although, I loved Ephram's comment back to her whenever he told her that he wouldn't have her. I thought that was powerful and even Amy seemed moved by that line, even though she tried to hide her emotions at the time. Anyway, back on topic. I also entirely agree with you that Ephram is also at risk of really getting screwed with his narrow choice of choosing piano, and only piano as his career, with nothing to potentially fall back on. Like you said, he could injure his hands in some way and/or be physically unable to perform. He could also not get into any conservatory's or even fail miserably during his attempt to succeed at a conservatory. He certainly is putting all his eggs in one basket and that is a huge risk and an "all or nothing" type of scenario. Then again, I think Amy might have been saying that Ephram knows what he wants to do in life, and she has no clue. Further into my post, I will explain what I mean. Back to Amy.. Yes, after reading your good points, I do believe Amy was a little over the top with her deduction of having nothing. The girl is a beautiful, intelligent and driven person. Her future does await her. And while she was right in saying that she did apply to all schools close to Ephram, which I think she was more pissed at herself for being so dead set on doing so, instead of also applying for some on her own, I do think that she applied to some really great schools that certainly are going to give her potential success and a superb future. So, I do believe the word "sacrifice" was a bit strong of a word.

Regarding this dance thing... Here's what I think is going on with Amy's sudden strive for figuring out some things for herself regarding her interests, etc.. I think the writers are going to have Amy go on the path of "disregarding potential career aspirations" to make her finally focus in on one career path. I agree that this dance thing will be a flop. Again, they are doing this for Amy to check off dance as a potential career move. Maybe in college, she will dance as more of a casual, fun activity, but what they are doing right now is having her check off dance as a potential professional career. That's how I see it. They will also have her maybe do a few more things such as get more involved with writing and then she finds out that this is also not her gig. Ultimately, what I think she will decide upon, and they have been giving hints throughout the entire year, is that she will decide to go pre-med. Her innate ability to research and study HD had even Jake impressed and he was shocked that she was an undecided major and not pre-med. The hints about biology/pre-med have been floating around all year. I definitely think that in addition to Hannah being the awesome best friend that she is, she will also enable and give Amy the incentive and realization that medicine is her calling. So, in my opinion of what I see going on, Amy's sudden interest in wanting to get back into other interests is for her to figure out that medicine is her calling and she will rule out other things before this. Dance, of course, being the number one thing. That's where I think the writers are going with this and I don't think it is about causing problems between E/A. If anything, like I said, they want to balance it out and make them both on the same level as far as the future is concerned, and in essence, their relationship will only flourish and be an equal footing, which we all know, is the best formula for a solid relationship.

MAKRO

WILPEN:
I agree that pre-med would be a logical path for her.
But, in the context of her relationship, it really doesn't matter what new interests Amy develops, as long as they make her feel she has a full life (and a direction for the future). The most important thing for us E/A fans is that she resists her tendency to dive into any of them so obsessively that she neglects Ephram and the continuing development of their relationship. She has to learn to be passionate about more than one thing. I believe she will, but it may take awhile once her ballerina dreams, however illogical, are broken. I just hope she becomes more content with herself, thereby allowing her to continue to strengthen her relationship, before any more major bombs explode.

jediwands

Agreed. I definitely think the key is Amy being able to manage and maintain any and all loves/interests in her life. She has never been about balance and like you said, she has certainly been about obsessively focusing in on one thing (Colin) while everything else goes to hell. I do think she will learn to balance everything, however. I think it was a break through that she is still very much in love with Ephram, and also wants to pursue other aspects in her life. The old Amy would have cared less about anything else expect for Ephram, which, in my book, if that would have continued, their relationship would have been destined for failure. So, I like the fact that she is stepping out of her old self and wanting to do the healthy thing. Like you said, the key is that she doesn't neglect Ephram and everything else while she is looking. I have faith that she won't.

The Crow

Okay, I'm going to jump right into this discussion as well, but I'm not going to apologize like ergo did because I'm not as nice....hehe...

I think one thing we are all losing in this discussion of Amy's behavior is her age. She is a senior in high school. Sure she has shown uncommon maturity in the past, but she has also gone the other way and had completely irrational behavior. Letting Ephram twist in the wind for a month because of his lie isn't all that out of character to me. She gave Harold the cold shoulder for weeks on end during the whole Colin thing, and what was her major gripe: betraying her trust. Now she feels like Ephram has betrayed her trust by going to see Madison, so he gets the cold shoulder too.

As for when her anger shifted, I got the impression that she really started considering that after her first discussion with Hannah, and I think it really became clear to her after the unseen second conversation. Maybe she wondered why she was so mad at Ephram, but I don't think she consciously realized the 'actual' reason behind that anger until Hannah forced her to actually talk about it (something Ephram should have done to her long ago).

Then we have her whole 'sacrifice' diatribe. Once again, I didn't find it too out of character for a teenage girl to be melodramatic. I certainly don't find it out of character for Amy. The point has already been made that she didn't 'sacrifice' all that much aside from fun things, so I won't go into that again, but I did understand what she was saying. Sure she knows that Ephram didn't ask her to give up all the things she gave up, but there is a difference between abstractly knowing something and emotionally reconciling that reality. In other words, while her resentment of Ephram was irrational, I can totally understand it. I don't support it, but I don't think it is this awful mean spirited thing.

I am glad that Amy came to this realization though. Amy's single minded devotion to their relationship has been the main thing that worried me, and it seems that she is coming to her senses. While it remains to be seen if she is going to swing to the other extreme, I do think that, in the long run, this development will serve to strenghten the Ephramy relationship. Oh, and is it just me, or did Ephram miss a great opportunity to come clean about the Princeton application? Do you think that revelation would have helped the situation, or made things worse?

I'll be back later with my thoughts on the episode overall...

ergo3

Haha, I'm not normally that nice eaither, but I am still new here. Don't want to upset anyone. Lol.

Start with the end first. I left my thoughts over in fanbolt. I mentioned the idea of him coming clean over there. I was definitely disappointed when he didn't come clean. Why does he feel so much guilt over the madison lie, when this one is quite possibly just as big. Every time he fails to mention the application is just another time that he lies to her. Secrets aren't good for relationships. Lol.

I think that you need to have a balance of your own life and your life as a couple to have the ideal situation in a relationship. It is scary that I see so much of Amy's character in my girlfriend, but one thing she has never done was give up her life for me. She still dances, she is still at the top of her class and still finds time to do musicals, band and anything else musical offered. Funniest connection is the dancer/pre-med. I do believe that is the path Amy will take and my girlfriend wants to be a doctor. We have that balance of life without and life with. That's what Amy and Ephram need to find. It is harder to have that when you are able to see each other so often, but it still is a necessary evil. Amy's path of self-rea;ization will only help to make their relationship stronger. I still wish there was a more IN charachter way that the writers used to go about this growth.

Derek.

MAKRO

I guess I should clarify what I meant by my remarks about Amy's behavior. I didn't see it as the least bit out of character; quite the contrary. That's the problem. It was very Amy-like drama queen behavior. Despite her occasional demonstrations of a growing maturity, Amy has pretty much always acted completely on her emotions in critical situations (in other words, like a normal teenager), and with an unshakable conviction she is right. Then she finds it exceedingly difficult to accept and acknowledge the fact later that she was completely wrong. Her extended cold shoulder to her Dad after he "betrayed her trust" by telling Dr. Brown about Colin's vomiting is a perfect example, and I'm glad it was brought up. She was completely in the wrong, and her actions, and any resulting delay in addressing Colin's symptoms, may have ultimately cost Colin his life. But, I don't remember her apologizing to her Dad once she realized it.
I completely agree that she let her emotions rule her once again Monday night (and for the preceding month). But however in character she was being, that doesn't make her behavior right. She shouldn't have accepted Ephram's apology if she was still overwhelmed with anger. She shouldn't have told him she didn't want to break up, and then continue giving him the cold shoulder for a month. She shouldn't have dumped on him about resenting him for the "sacrifices" she had made voluntarily. Was all of this atypical? Unfortunately not. Too bad. I was hoping she had matured beyond this practice.
Although she impressed me at the end by acting extremely maturely, does this indicate she will react differently to future moments of crisis? We can only hope, because they are coming.
Also, I too was surprised Ephram didn't take the opportunity to address Princetongate. But I was even more surprised that he didn't use the occasion to re-assure Amy once and for all about Madison. The dinner disaster certainly indicated she was still paranoid about it. I guess he was too busy being relieved they were still together. I can definitely understand that.

jediwands

Outstanding discussion, everyone. I hope we can continue to have these in depth and interesting discussions as the episodes keep on coming.

Great point about Amy's age, The Crow. That's why I loved the dinner scene so much, mostly because it cracked me up, but also because Amy was acting like the perfect definition of a typical teenage girl, and it was fun to see. Think about it.. This girl, two years ago, was having to deal with comas and death. It's nice to see that her biggest beef right now is about her boyfriend doing something stupid, but by no means, terrible. I loved Amy's comments about Ephram/Bright, saying that they were two idiots for the price of one, because she was so right on. I just love how the E/A relationship works. They have flavors of intense maturity about so many things and then at other times, you see their teenage tendencies and it is so wonderful to see. But most of all, I simply love this relationship because their love for each other is ageless. It is something that can never be disputed. Their love for each other is deep and endless.

I think that's why I didn't get too fired up by Amy's actions because I thought they were pretty much in character, as well as understanding that this girl is huge on trust. Once that trust is broken, she is off with the gloves and ready to fight. We saw this with Harold and now Ephram. That's why I have no clue how she is going to react whenever she finds out that both her father and grandmother knew about the Madison pregnancy. Man, she is going to be livid. Harold's also going to be getting it from Rose, too.

The Crow.. With regards to the rest of your post, my thoughts and feelings are very much in agreement with you, as I have already stated as such. I will also say in response to your question about Ephram missing the boat on Princetongate. The answer is a big, fat, heck yeah! I wanted to jump into my tv screen and whisper into Ephram's ear to come clean with Princetongate, because I honestly feel like if he would have done so, Amy would have looked at it as a loving and noble thing, and she very much would have been okay with it. As I stated on the E/A thread on Monday night, I still think that once she does find out about Princetongate, she will be okay with it, just based on their conversation outside of Ephram's house. Yes, like I said earlier, I feel much better about Princetongate now. However, I really wanted Ephram to tell her then. Oh well, I still think once Princetongate comes out, they will get through it.

ergo.. That is so funny about the similarities between your girlfriend and the character of Amy. LOL

MAKRO, once again, even though I am cutting Amy a little more slack than you are, I totally see what you are saying. As far as your question about whether or not Amy's maturity at the end of this past episode will continue on or not, I really think that it will. I firmly believe that they are, in addition to narrowing down Amy's career path, also giving her some strength and maturity that she is going to need during these tough times that are just around the corner. I still believe that Amy will be Ephram's rock as Ephram was hers during season 1.. I also predict that Nina will be Andy's rock during this time.

MAKRO

I also am glad to see such lively discussion.
Amy's epiphany Monday night about having invested too much of herself in her relationship at the expense of her outside passions was a very hopeful sign. Especially in her realization that the responsibility for making these sacrifices was hers alone. Think of the consequences if this had not happened prior to Madisongate, Princetongate, etc.; her and Ephram would have zero chance of surviving.
But, I'm hoping her revelation goes further than that. We've talked about Amy's tendency toward the dramatic, her maturity, or lack of it, her grudge-holding ability, etc. But, what I'm hoping we saw Monday night was the first step toward beating her raging insecurity. For someone who has always had as much going for her as Amy, she has always been extremely insecure in her relationships. This is something her Dad called her on big-time in Shoot The Moon. She essentially falls in love with love, creating idealized versions. She may see her unilateral sacrifices as noble in the name of love, but I believe they have been out of fear and insecurity that her perfect relationship will end. She was terrified that Colin had been about to break up with her at the time of his accident. Would she have visited him as many times in the hospital if she wasn't carrying that fear? I don't know. But later, Colin was able to control her completely by even hinting that they were done. With the crackhead, Amy did things she would never have done otherwise (miss her beloved Dad's birthday, etc.) because she was afraid even that doofus would leave her alone. I always thought things would be different when she got together with Ephram, but I was wrong (until late in Monday's episode). By the way, I think one of the funniest lines of the season was when Amy told Hannah she was usually really secure with herself. But, then again, outside of her relationships she usually is. The reason she has been so paranoid about Madison is out of fear of not measuring up in Ephram's eyes. I mean the girl actually said Madison was prettier than her! And she was worried that Ephram wouldn't enjoy sex as much with her! In a sense, the intensity of her insecurity about Madison is a measure of the depth of her love for Ephram. The deeper that love became, the more insecure she became about losing him (hence the Hannah/Bright date disaster).
I guess in Amy's case anger initiates introspection. And it was long overdue. She should almost thank Ephram for pissing her off so badly. She may not have had this breakthrough on her own for months, or even years. I think she will now develop a new level of self-confidence and a much fuller (and thereby healthier) life, allowing her to bring more than ever to her relationship with Ephram; which will then be a strong relationship of equals. All of the unhealthy obsession, dependence, and, yes, insecurity will vanish. It may even become inconsequential whether Ephram ever addresses the Madison issue with her directly. I only hope there is time for all, or most, of this to happen before the next crisis.
I've always liked Amy in spite of her blemishes. In fact, her ability, and that of EVC, to make you like her in spite of some of the things she has done over the years, is remarkable. But I think I'm going to like the new Amy even more. To paraphrase Ephram: "Amy, you're a senior. It's time."

P.S. I still would have liked to see a bit more tenderness in that last scene.

jediwands

Wow, what a great read, MAKRO. You have so many outstanding points, I have to quote some of your stuff and comment accordingly..

So very true. They would have crumbled durng the first second of Madisongate. I firmly believe that Amy's realization will be key in preparation for Madisongate. And I feel like it will be a huge saving grace once the bomb explodes.

You make an excellent point about Amy's insecurities. She absolutely has always been insecure in her relationships and for the life of me, I have never understood why, but I have learned to accept that this was part of the essence of Amy.. Until now, that is.

WORD. This is just how I see it. Definitely with Colin and Tommy, and pretty much with Ephram, although I do, 100%, without a doubt, believe she loves Ephram in every sense of the word, unlike Colin and Tommy.

Heh, that's right on. I laughed intensely during that moment.

Right on, again. I shake my head in amazement while seeing this strikingly gorgeous girl, who has the guy of her dreams, who happens to be hopelessly in love with her, and yet, she still has insecurities about not measuring up to his ex! However, I have to admit that I sometimes secretly love to see it because I do believe that her intense insecurites are directly related to how deeply in love she is with Ephram.

I couldn't have said it better. That's why I thoroughly enjoyed Monday's episode because I believe this is where the writer's are heading. Throughout all of E/A's "teenage" moments, and even before this future transformation of Amy, one of the reasons I simply adore this couple is because I believe that they have one of the most unique and touching relationships on tv. They make all the other "cheesy and soapy" teen romances look ridiculous. However, I am feeling a sense of giddiness at the thought of watching Amy's growth and the dynamic E/A relationship flourish even more. In other words, I loved it pre-Amy self realization.. I'm going to absolutely devour it post-Amy self realization.

Hell yeah. EVC = pure genius.. Never, have I seen any other young actress out there that even comes close to her amazing talent. This girl deserves an Emmy. She is flawless and it's scary to even say this considering she is only 18 years old. How she has defined Amy Abbott in a way that makes her so flawed, and yet the more you want to scream about these flaws, the more you love Amy for them. It's unheard of to feel this way. I can say this with true certainty.. If anyone else was playing Amy Abbott, I would have much different thoughts toward the character and I doubt I would love E/A as much as I do.

smoothaise

Has Jerry seen this episode yet? It doesn't seem that he posted his response to it.

MAKRO

Did anyone else find it interesting that when Amy was whining to Ephram about the sacrifices she had made for their relationship she mentioned her applying only to schools near his conservatories? I'm not sure how applying to eight of the top fifty schools in the country constitutes a sacrifice, but is this supposed to infer that if she wasn't being a relationship martyr she would have applied to Princeton after all?
I reviewed Shoot The Moon (a.k.a. The College Choice episode) and noted the following:
Amy to Ephram: "It's not like New York and Boston don't have the best schools, anyway".
Amy to Harold: "Dad, I know you've always had a thing for them, but I just don't see myself there".
Harold to Amy: "I have baby pictures of you in a little orange hat".
Amy to Harold: "How many times do I have to tell you, Dad, that's not my goal anymore".
Harold to Ephram: "Somewhere between freshman year and her relationship with you, that dream changed".
Ephram to Harold: "Well, a lot's happened since then, not just me".
Amy to Ephram: "Guess I could apply to Princeton, keep the Dad happy".
What I take from all of that is that Princeton has been more her Dad's goal than hers; probably due to his own history (not applying there because he wanted to be with Rose), and certainly understandable for a doting father. And even if it was her goal as late as freshman year, she could have any number of reasons (as Ephram pointed out) for changing that. How many people retain the same goals from ages 15-18? I didn't see any definitive indication she had her heart set on going there, only to "sacrifice" doing so for her relationship. On the other hand, if that were the case, is returning to that dream part of getting her life back? If so, maybe Princetongate will turn out quite differently than we expect. But I don't think so. Even the way Amy is thinking after her epiphany, she has to realize long distance college relationships rarely work (I believe there's even a cliche that they always end by mid-terms). And if she is thinking she could get so much more from Princeton than she could from any of her eight other choices she's insulting a lot of terrific schools.
Actually, considering her record, I would consider it pretty surprising if she got accepted to Princeton anyway; or I would if this were real life. After botching her junior year academically, and having few if any extra-curriculars? Even a 1400 SAT is not that outstanding; very good, but not outstanding. A school like Princeton can be awfully choosy. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me greatly if she was rejected by all eight. They all have pretty high standards.
As far as the future of the show is concerned, I find it difficult to believe Amy or Ephram will go any further than Colorado A&M for school; at least not for long. I don't see the story mavens, or the production folks, trying to create not one, but two East Coast college scenarios. I think that's why they inserted the A&M music recruiter and campus tour earlier. Also, this seems like the only scenario that would allow them to attend school together, not to mention being able to continue to interact closely with family. I don't see phone conversations from Boston or New York as the way to sustain the family aspect of the show, arguably Everwood's most important asset. It may be unfortunate circumstances which result in this happening, but it's still my guess.
So, I'm betting (hoping?) Amy's mention of the college thing was just drama queen whining. I still see her somewhere near Ephram no matter what. If not, why watch?

jediwands

I know for a fact that Jerry has seen the episode (talked with him via e-mail) and I'm sure he will be commenting fairly soon with his thoughts. I, for one, cannot wait until he does so.

jediwands

MAKRO, great points. First off, I completely agree that I never got any indication that Amy was even seriously considering going to Princeton. I do believe it was always Harold's dream for her. I have this theory that in a very weird way, Harold tries to live his own dreams through Amy and Bright.. For instance, sports with Bright and Princeton with Amy. Maybe she had a thought or two about Princeton very early on, but it was nothing nearly as serious as Harold made it out to be. If it was, she would have made us at least mildy aware of that. I also agree that her grades were in the tank during junior year, and that definitely will weigh in on acceptances no matter how well she will do this year. At the very least, she will have to explain away why her junior year was so horrific. And yes, her SAT's are not exceptional. Good but not great. And given how picky Princeton is, it definitely wouldn't surprise me if she wasn't even accepted or was rejected by any/all the other schools that she applied to, minus Colorado A & M. Speaking of Colorado A & M.. I am convinced that Ephram/Amy and heck, even Bright, will all be attending this college. Here's my prediction and this is how I see it could go down.. Ephram will stay home because of Madisongate.. Amy just might want to take off for a while, considering all the drama, and she will end up, initially, going away to college, but then in a short while, end up coming back and attending Colorado A & M. I have followed very closely the Everwood books, and one of them, ironically, is titled.. "Change of Plans." It hasn't be released yet, but will be in September.. Could there be a coincidence that around this time, not only will season 4 be under way, but so will college? All the other titles are also very interesting, indeed. But that's for another thread. In fact, the one specifically regarding the books.

ergo3

Wilpen, great thoughts. To go on your Madisongate outcome, I do see that as a possibility. However, am I wrong in hoping that madison is part of the mildly large percentage of women who miscarriage their first child? I know it doesn't happen to everyone, but I heard that it is common for a couple to miscarriage their first child, but go on to have other healthy children. Just a thought. :/ Anyway, I can see Amy venturing away to school, and realizing that she has a good life, but is missing something and comes back. I could see that clearly and think that that would be a way to keep it all credible and believable. I don't think I can see them believably all attending A&M unless it just turns out that they didn't get in. I still have this feeling that Amy will get into Pronceton because of Ephram's essay. I don't see them making a point of him writing the essay and submitting the application for her not to get in because of it.

jediwands

ergo, you are not wrong in hoping that Madison might just be in that very common category of women that miscarry their first time of ever becoming pregnant. I secretly would love to see this storyline take this route, but I can't help but remember what Berlanti said a while back in an interview (which I tried to locate but I'm not having any luck in finding) where he said that Madison leaves fairly quickly during Madisongate, but she leaves something behind. Well, two things come to mind as to what he meant by this.. A) She leaves the baby for the Brown's to care for, or B) She drops the bomb, maybe has a late stage miscarriage or complications occur shortly after childbirth, but leaves behind major destruction to many of the relationships involved. Who knows.. Something tells me that in Everwood, a miscarriage would be too simple of a resolution. I think the writers have been prepped for a detailed way to approach this storyline. Do I think that Ephram is going to be spending the next several years of his life taking care of this child? Nope, not realistic in the least. I think two options seem more likely.. Ephram and Madison end up giving up the baby for adoption or Madison loses the baby shortly after childbirth.. Maybe complications of some kind? Who knows? Another long shot is that somehow, someway, the baby is not Ephram's after all.. Maybe Jay's? I'm reaching on that one, though.

All I know is I feel like Berlanti & Co. were always ready to go ahead with a more detailed and "tougher route" for this storyline. My only hope is that RESOLUTION happens in a swift fashion, once the fireworks begin.

Regarding Amy.. Glad you agree that my scenario might be likely where Amy leaves for college, initially, then comes back to Everwood within a short amount of time. I also completely agree with you that Princeton was definitely thrown in there for a reason. This very well could be the school she initially takes off for.