Dolfan13

Great discussion on Ephram everyone! That was fun.


Here's our second one:

Do you have any controversial opinions about Harold?

everwoodfan52

Harold has a tendency to be too judgemental and rude at times. This was extremely evident season one. He jumped to conlusions about Andy and Ephram....had no use for Ephram whom he considered a future felon. Why would he ever think that? Because Ephram had purple hair and wore black t-shirts?
His treatment of Andy was terrible....fighting over a parking space...calling him a nut job...criticising his parenting. This was before he found out that Andy wasn't charging anyone. I realize that Harold felt a little jealousy toward Andy because he was a brilliant surgeon and Harold didn't have the hands....but...was that Andy's fault? Andy was nothing but friendly toward Harold, but Harold continued to be a prick.

jediwands

I wanted to make a comment about Ephram quickly: I definitely think there's something to be said about Ephram's personality and how he certainly was pretty happy in his own skin. He did have an attitude where he wasn't very approachable. Defense mechanism ever so slightly? Maybe. But a lot of it was the aura around him where the Bright's of the world really did suck and were shallow and superficial. I was the female form of Bright back when I played sports and was involved with the group of friends I hung around with. I do know admittedly I would have never noticed Ephram, not because I was stuck up in the least. It would have been because of Ephram and the energy Ephram would give out. Thus, admittedly I would not have noticed Ephram or talked to him because he wouldn't have given me any indication that he wanted talked to anyway.

Regarding Harold... I think he was so blown away by Andy and Ephram, he didn't know which way to turn. I think he acted out inappropriately because he wasn't used to such a liberal big city guy (a doctor at that) and family hitting town. His usual calm, in control exterior was shattered by nervousness and wonderment which is where I see the controversial area I want to touch on... I honestly think WHILE Harold was repulsed by Andy, he was super taken in by him too. I am not suggesting Harold had romantic feelings for Andy but I do know in the past there were tons of Harold/Andy shippers, that is for sure. There is a reason for that. LOL. They fought like a married couple sometimes.

So, I believe in a way, Harold immediately developed a love/hate sort of thing for Andy and "the love" side of it scared the hell out of him. LOL.

everwoodfan52

Your comments have made Lemony very very happy!

As far as Ephram is concerned...yes, he did have that attitude that he was unapproachable. I think that aura of mystique added to his coolness level (for me). Bright was a little too in your face cool. Michelle, I'll bet you were not like that!

'Tos

I SO agree, Betty, about Harold hitting out on Ephram in particular. Especially since Harold and Ephram were so much alike. You think of a scene such as Harold coming to see Ephram while he plays piano in "Shoot the Moon" and you see a connection! I honestly think in S5 we would have seen them grow closer and it would have been great. But Harold hitting out at Ephram so soon for no real reason did frustrate me too, especially since you could see even then that they were alike and would have gotten along if Harold would have given Ephram a chance--and if Ephram would have given Harold a chance too. A teenager isn't going to want to hang out with the girl of their dream's father.

I agree that Harold liked Andy a lot too. I don't even know if that's that controversial, because Harold helps Andy out quite a lot in S1, even while he's insulting him. He feels for Andy as early as "The Great Doctor Brown" and gives him huge advice about a small town doctor not being a race, but a marathon. He helps Andy out with cases, he admires the work he's done, he gets Andy to see the light about Colin and then they become very close friends, quite soon on. Harold begins to depend on having Andy there even in S1, None of that happens unless Harold already had an affinity for Andy. His insults, which I do agree with Betty crossed the line at times, happen even when he's helping Andy. Think of the scene in "Episode 20" where he calls Andy a "commie pinko", but ultimately reveals something very personal to himself about performing abortions and his dedication to his father. He enjoys making fun of Andy on the one hand, but on the other hand, he's bringing him closer at the same time.

jediwands

I'm glad!

I liked it too. I just wish I would have recognized more Ephram's in high school but it wasn't possible. I find that some of my friends I have made later in life have many Ephram traits so at least I'm experiencing it later in life.

No, I just dated the Bright's instead.

I think with Harold I believe he liked him too much, too quickly, and it drove him crazy as a result. LOL. Which I found kind of hot in a way since I'm weird and always, always loved the Harold/Andy dynamic. But I think on the surface, Berlanti wanted you to see the hate Harold had for Andy yet internally what was brewing inside of good old Harold was the love he had for him at the same time. Pure genius by Berlanti, I might add!

Here's one for possible controversy... Harold was borderline mentally abusive to Bright sometimes?

everwoodfan52

I agree with this. He was very negative as far as Bright was concerned. He made assumptions of what Bright could and could not do...thus...making Bright very insecure about his academic abilities. (It wasn't the same with his Athletic abilities). Harold also pretty much favored Amy...doted on her...kind of making Bright fthink he was second best. This resulted (unfortunately) in Rose babying/excusing Bright a little too often to compensate for Harold's neglect. This made Bright pretty flawed.

LemonyPie

Let's see here...agreed that Harold was too rude and judgmental of Andy and Ephram in the beginning...agreed that Harold obviously had quite a bit of love for Andy and was put off by this (especially early on)...I don't think either of those opinions is too controversial in regards to Harold though.

Harold being borderline mentally abusive to Bright...hmmm...I don't know. It depends on your definition of mental abuse, I guess. I agree that he made some hefty mistakes with Bright; as you guys have mentioned, he pushed him to be a football star and never really gave him the opportunity to excel at academics as well, and he clearly doted on Amy.

But I don't know if I would go as far as to call it "abuse". To me at least, mental abuse would be if Harold actually told Bright he was stupid (ETA: Grant reminded me that he did do that once, but luckily, it was only once and was followed by regret and apology!), worthless, incapable, inferior to Amy, et cetera--or implied any of those things extremely heavily or harmfully. As it is, though, Harold still treated Bright with love, attention, and kindness. He obviously did not intend to hurt Bright. He quite possibly saw a lack of interest in academics in Bright early on, and so he thought sports would be a good route for him to go on. And while he treated Amy with extra adoration, he still spent a good amount of quality time with Bright and often bonded with him.

'Tos

I did hate when Harold called Bright stupid. I think if he did things like that more often, it would trend towards some form of mental abuse. Luckily, he immediately followed that remark with a look of regret, and followed that with apologies. He also supported him with sports in S1 and obviously by S2 he was very proud of Bright, both for protecting his sister, and for working hard at school and getting so far to make up for his past mistakes with school. And by S4, they were closer, I think, than Rose and Bright were, and also Amy and Harold were at that point.

But, yeah, Harold did not know how to always be a father to Bright, and it took Bright to maybe become more like Harold with Bright's relationship to Hannah and to be more sensitive for Harold to really connect with him. That's not good at all from what I think most would consider to be the best parent on the show by far. But he certainly did make mistakes with Bright with school, and then Amy over the prescription business in S2.

I still wish that deleted scene from "Vegetative State" should have stayed in. It perfectly represents why Harold fairly or unfairly (and I think it's closer to unfairly) doesn't know how to parent a person like Bright like he does a person like Amy. That changes, and he then knows how to better parent Bright in S4 than he does Amy. When someone turns away from who he is, Harold can struggle.

Dolfan13

I agree with a lot here, especially with Harold and Bright winding up being closer than Bright and Rose or Harold and Amy. I actually never thought about that until your post.

I don't think it was mental abuse and agree that if he kept calling him stupid and the like, then it definitely would be.

I don't really think this is a controversial line of thought (having a tough time with Harold, actually!) but I think Harold's biggest fault was judging a book by its cover. He saw Andy as an egomaniac, Ephram as a future druggie, Bright as only a football star, etc. Sometimes he was true like with Tommy but more often than not he was wrong.

'Tos

I'm having a tough time with a controversial thought for Harold, too, Dolfan. I think as close as I can get is that I don't think he was wrong for not prescribing the anti-depression pills to Amy. I don't think he was right either in doing that, so that's where I have trouble being controversial, but I guess I think he was in a lose-lose situation and even with the pills, Amy still had a long way to go before getting better. Yeah, that's as close as I can get. Pretty sad!

Absolutely true. He had that same snap judgment quality that Ephram could have, which means they were even closer to being alike! Come on, Harold, give the kid a chance.

Yeah, that's one of my favourite elements of S4, how Bright grew so close to his dad while Amy grew further away. Complete opposite of S1, but it all made so much sense.

LemonyPie

So...any more controversial opinions about Harold?

I think maybe I have one: the townspeople didn't treat Harold with enough respect or loyalty. Many of them acted like he was just an annoying sour apple, someone to being rooted against in favor of Andy, when really he had been getting to know them all his life and taking care of them for 15 years! And as we all know from watching the series, despite acting cranky toward them sometimes, Harold cared a hell of a lot about his patients, so I wonder why the townspeople wouldn't have known that by then. Many of them were so willing to abandon his practice, knowing full well that he had his own family to support and had always been a great doctor to them. *lets my Harold-fangirl-freak-flag fly * Thoughts?

'Tos

Well, I guess I need to put my Harold-fanboy-freak-flag-fly because I completely agree. He was clearly a good man, worked hard, was a good father, a good doctor, and they isolated him, even before Andy came around. You have to wonder if his father was beloved around town and that's why they looked different on Harold, but then as you pointed out in the Harold Sr. thread, Lemony, Edna says that they were a lot alike. Hmm. That's kind of confusing, hee. Anyway, the townies often got under my skin, so Harold mocking them to their faces and them not even realizing it made me crack up.

Although I will give them props for even walking into his Bagel Shoppe. I don't think you do that unless you want to help the guy out and because you like him, because he was clearly insane at that point.

everwoodfan52

I did think that Harold was wrong in being so stubborn about the anti-depressant pills for Amy. She was in so much pain...it was scary. I don't understand that Harold, as her parent, would not even consider it. I would have done anything to take my child out of that state. I realize that he is the doctor...but Rose had no say in the matter...she had to watch her daughter not even care about living. Amy was a mess.

LemonyPie

Really?? There were? I thought I was the first one on this board! There was no Andy/Harold thread before I created one, and I couldn't fathom why since they seem like one of the most obvious pairings on the show! But there really were a lot before? Where did they all go?