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Old 12-17-2011, 09:02 AM
  #1
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The “Controversy” Game #1: Do you have an opinion that is a bit out there?

First off, I wanted to say a quick thanks again to Lemony for her idea on how to run this and for the first topic!


Okay, so what we’re going to do is this:

Every few days introduce a new topic and see if people have any controversial opinions on the matter. We’ll be playing a Devil’s Advocate of sorts. Here are a few examples: maybe someone actually liked Andy and Amanda or thought Rose was a bad mother.

This may become a discussion topic depending on how active it is. The biggest thing is to remember the nature of the game: controversy. As a result, it makes sense not to just post like “I don’t have any controversial opinion on this.” We’ll know if the topic isn’t hot by how little posts it may get. Obviously some topics will create more controversy than others.

Finally, I’m always up for input so be sure to give yours if this thread is struggling, needs to be spiced up, changed, etc.

Have fun!

Do you have any controversial opinions about...
1. Ephram? (Dec. 17 - Dec. 20)
2. Harold? (Dec. 21 - Dec. 26 )
3. Amy? (Dec. 27 - )
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Last edited by Dolfan13; 12-27-2011 at 07:41 AM
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Old 12-17-2011, 09:22 AM
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I'll start...

Looking back, Ephram was actually pretty unlikeable. The writers did a somewhat good job of justifying some of his actions but if you really look at it: he fought with his dad for years and undoubtedly took years off of his life, treated his younger sister pretty lousy, was never the greatest friend to Bright, treated his soulmate like trash when they broke up and left Bright and Amy during a time in need when Rose had cancer.

Julia was always shown to be a good mother to her children but you would think that she would have instilled better manners in her son. Like I said, some of the stuff (such as Julia's untimely death) justified some of Ephram's behavior, but I'm not sure the writers did enough to give him consequences for his actions - especially those at the end of season three.
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Old 12-17-2011, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolfan13
First off, I wanted to say a quick thanks again to Lemony for her idea on how to run this and for the first topic!
Aww, thank you for the mention!

As for your opinion about Ephram, I agree with some of it and disagree with other parts. I've mentioned before that Ephram in season 3 and 4 seemed very unlikable to me, and he ended up being one of my least favorite characters in those seasons.

Quote:
he fought with his dad for years and undoubtedly took years off of his life
True. I think Ephram's resentment toward Andy was justified in general, but not in every situation at all though; there were plenty of times when Andy did nothing wrong and Ephram still managed to turn it into a heated fight.

Quote:
treated his younger sister pretty lousy
Hmm...what makes you say that? In season 1, he seemed like a great brother to her. In the other seasons, he wasn't really around much, but I don't remember him ever actually treating her badly.

Quote:
was never the greatest friend to Bright
Somewhat agreed. Bright seemed like he was a better friend to Ephram than vice versa. I can't think of any examples right now, but it's a general feeling I got.

Quote:
treated his soulmate like trash when they broke up
Did he? What examples are you thinking of here?

Quote:
and left Bright and Amy during a time in need when Rose had cancer.
Yep, he definitely did. He was quite clearly a pretty selfish character for most of the series.
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Old 12-17-2011, 09:44 AM
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Awesome job, Dolfan! Great idea, I like the title a lot and I can't wait to dive in.

I'm out in 15, so that's all I got for now, but I had to come by once I saw it.
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Old 12-17-2011, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolfan13 (View Post)
Do you have any controversial opinions about Ephram?
*whispering* I never found him smokin' hot like most people seemed to. In fact, there were times I found him flat-out unattractive. And I'm not just thinking about the Mullet of Shame.

I'll let myself out now.
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Old 12-17-2011, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Taryn74 (View Post)
*whispering* I never found him smokin' hot like most people seemed to. In fact, there were times I found him flat-out unattractive. And I'm not just thinking about the Mullet of Shame.

I'll let myself out now.
I second that!

I never found Ephram hot. I never found him ugly but I didn't find him attractive. I guess he's not my type!

I don't always necessarily like the perfect featured guy (even if maybe that is what I find pretty easy on the eyes the most, see David Tennant... I do like the pretty boy look for a guy: which Ephram is NOT LOL) but Ephram's features were a bit too... unattractive for me.

And now I am leaving in hopes of not getting punched or something.

Last edited by Auror; 12-17-2011 at 02:38 PM
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Old 12-17-2011, 02:41 PM
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I agree with both of you! I thought Ephram was decent-looking in season 1 and 2 (there were times when he could pass as cute and more times that he could look plain unattractive too), but I definitely didn't find him hot. I'm kind of surprised to hear that most people find him "smokin' hot". I never knew that.
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AMY: Phone's been ringing non-stop since the paper came out. There are a bunch more messages on the machine.
HAROLD: Amy? Are these all of them?
AMY: Sorry Dad, he didn't call.
HAROLD: I don't know what you mean.
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Old 12-17-2011, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by LemonyPie (View Post)
I agree with both of you! I thought Ephram was decent-looking in season 1 and 2 (there were times when he could pass as cute and more times that he could look plain unattractive too), but I definitely didn't find him hot.
Yes and I think the longer his hair got, the more unattractive he became. Of course, seasons 3/4 support that.

Quote:
I'm kind of surprised to hear that most people find him "smokin' hot". I never knew that.
Betty might be in that boat but she will have to support or deny it while hopefully not getting mad at me.

Yes, back in the day on this board when I was mod, I can tell you that endless people found him drool-worthy hot. Oh yes.
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Old 12-17-2011, 03:26 PM
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Yes, back in the day on this board when I was mod, I can tell you that endless people found him drool-worthy hot. Oh yes.
Pfft. We all know Harold is the hottest guy on the show. *prepares to repeat that opinion once the thread's topic is "controversial opinions about Harold"*
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AMY: Phone's been ringing non-stop since the paper came out. There are a bunch more messages on the machine.
HAROLD: Amy? Are these all of them?
AMY: Sorry Dad, he didn't call.
HAROLD: I don't know what you mean.
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Old 12-17-2011, 04:37 PM
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Pfft. We all know Harold is the hottest guy on the show. *prepares to repeat that opinion once the thread's topic is "controversial opinions about Harold"*
Definitely think Harold had it going on.

Come on, no one can resist that guy:

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Old 12-17-2011, 05:10 PM
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Hmm...what makes you say that? In season 1, he seemed like a great brother to her. In the other seasons, he wasn't really around much, but I don't remember him ever actually treating her badly.
One time Ephram treated Delia badly was when he announced very matter of factly that he was going to Europe and didn't know when he was coming back. Delia ran out of the room crying and Ephram merely said, "She'll be alright." He did make up for this at end of the episode.


Quote:
Did he? What examples are you thinking of here?
Ephram treated Amy like trash when mocked her about thinking that they would be a forever. He also told her that his son was more important than she was...and...he abandoned her even though he knew her mom was diagnosed with cancer.

Quote:
Somewhat agreed. Bright seemed like he was a better friend to Ephram than vice versa. I can't think of any examples right now, but it's a general feeling I got.
Bright couldn't get into college..his life was up in the air and a mess....and Ephram is going on and on about his problems with Madison. I was so happy when Bright yelled at him, "Will you please shut up!!!"

Quote:
Betty might be in that boat but she will have to support or deny it while hopefully not getting mad at me.
I have never considered Ephram "Smoking hot." I found Ephram to be "Hot"...but not because of his looks...although I really liked his looks (minus seasons 3-4 hair!). What I found hot about Ephram was his eyes, his sensitivity, his humor, and his intelligence. And...he really did seem like a great kisser!!
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Dolfan13 (View Post)
I'll start...

Looking back, Ephram was actually pretty unlikeable. The writers did a somewhat good job of justifying some of his actions but if you really look at it: he fought with his dad for years and undoubtedly took years off of his life, treated his younger sister pretty lousy, was never the greatest friend to Bright, treated his soulmate like trash when they broke up and left Bright and Amy during a time in need when Rose had cancer.

Julia was always shown to be a good mother to her children but you would think that she would have instilled better manners in her son. Like I said, some of the stuff (such as Julia's untimely death) justified some of Ephram's behavior, but I'm not sure the writers did enough to give him consequences for his actions - especially those at the end of season three.
I actually do agree with that too. I think we all agree that Ephram is flawed, but I do think he was often more selfish than most "heroic" main characters would be. The examples about how he trashed Amy, left town, left them both during Rose's cancer is the biggest one. Like Andy with Amanda, he rebounded from something that seemingly was impossible to rebound from, but that didn't make those actions any less selfish. I always found Ephram to be fairly bratty, entitled and I wish that the show had delved a little more into how he himself had realized that when he went to Europe and saw what life was like when he went on his own. That Ephram in S4, that's an Ephram I can get behind!

About his looks, well, that's never been my focus, heh, but I think you're spot on, Betty.

Quote:
What I found hot about Ephram was his eyes, his sensitivity, his humor, and his intelligence.
I think that's what most people who found him hot thought too. There's more to being hot than just looks themselves, and Ephram had enough beyond that, especially when he grew up in S4. He still had that sensitivity, that humor, the intelligence, but he combined that with a new found maturity and responsibility for others too, and even though it may not have been his best season look wise (I have no idea), with all those elements, he may have been at his "hottest".
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Last edited by 'Tos; 12-18-2011 at 12:53 AM
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Old 12-18-2011, 05:10 AM
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Hmm...what makes you say that? In season 1, he seemed like a great brother to her. In the other seasons, he wasn't really around much, but I don't remember him ever actually treating her badly.

Did he? What examples are you thinking of here?
I think Betty pretty much nailed both in her response. Maybe I'm a little harsh on him towards Delia but, outside of season 1, they didn't really have much of a relationship. The age difference could be a factor.

I agree with a few of your assessments that Ephram was selfish. The writers did a good job in season four of getting away from that in his storyline with Kyle. I just wish they did a better job of giving him repercussions for the way he acted throughout the series.
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Old 12-18-2011, 08:22 AM
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Hm, I think Ephram was still pretty selfish and unlikable in season 4.

The fact that he demanded that Reid stop dating Amy was absolutely ridiculous, immature, and obviously completely selfish. Even if he thought that he and Amy were soulmates or whatever, there is no justification for what he did in that situation. He couldn't have known what Reid and Amy might have had together, and he knew good and well that his actions would upset Amy a great deal, having her believe that Reid just suddenly didn't want to see her anymore. It was just so childish and stupid, and he never really made up for it either.

And later, Ephram's nosiness into Kyle's personal life, his interference with Kyle and the girls/dance, and his strong desire to prove that he's not gay...Again, immature and unlikable. Sure, he said that he didn't want Kyle to be gay because he didn't want that extra social burden on Kyle, but he still came across as juvenile, meddlesome, and bordering on homophobic.

I feel there were other instances too. Those two stood out the most to me, but I'll bring the others up here if I can recall them.
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AMY: Phone's been ringing non-stop since the paper came out. There are a bunch more messages on the machine.
HAROLD: Amy? Are these all of them?
AMY: Sorry Dad, he didn't call.
HAROLD: I don't know what you mean.
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Old 12-18-2011, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by everwoodfan52 (View Post)
I have never considered Ephram "Smoking hot." I found Ephram to be "Hot"...but not because of his looks...although I really liked his looks (minus seasons 3-4 hair!). What I found hot about Ephram was his eyes, his sensitivity, his humor, and his intelligence. And...he really did seem like a great kisser!!
LOL!

I still stand by what I said above that many people found Ephram very physically attractive as well. Personality was one of his many charming aspects but MANY also found him very physically attractive. You are in the majority! I am in the minority!
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