joske

Sorry girl but these scenes had been filmed and were posted- in text- at the DC site back then. Apparently they thought P/J ers needed a bone and that's why they gave the dieharders something to cheer .

notsomuch

What scenes are you talking about? The scene in Apetite for Destruction is still at dawsonscreek.com, not in text, but the actual filmed scene.

Cleveland Rocks

Joske, I absolutely disagree with your reasoning that the Pacey/Joey season five cut scenes were never shown because they did not fit.. How the hell did you come up with this? First off, according to what I read, those scenes would have been perfectly in line with what we saw in season four. Pacey and Joey deeply and completely in love with each other. What isn't "fitting" is for us to believe that ALL OF A SUDDEN in Coda, Joey is over Pacey and that in season five, Joey and Pacey are not still in love with each other or at the very least, not still having deep feelings for one another. So, how on earth can you say that these scenes did not fit? Pacey and Joey were completely in love with each other since around the middle of season three and they just went through a huge relationship with one another, not to mention the fact that the reasoning as to why they broke up in Promicide had NOTHING to do with the fact that they weren't in love with each other anymore. They both were still in love with each other. In fact, Joey was absolutley devasted that they were breaking up. I have never viewed her so upset throughout the entire series. Her heart was breaking. She certainly did not want things to end with Pacey. Which brings me to Coda. Do you actually think that once Coda came around, SUDDENLY, Joey fell out of love with Pacey and completely into Dawson again, whenever she absolutely showed no romantic interest in Dawson since the end of season two/beg. of season three? Those cut scenes I am talking about certainly fit and were not out of context and we know this to be true, because in the series finale, we know that in Clean And Sober especially, as well as the series finale, Pacey never stopped loving Joey, as well as Joey always knowing that Pacey was the real deal but she was running scared from it.. So, those cut scenes would have fit in just fine according to how things panned out in future episodes, that's for sure.

And as far as the speculative Dawson/Joey having sex in Promicide, THANK GOD James and Katie had the sense to blatently turn it down, if, in fact, this did take place. Because that would have been horrific and entirely unbelievable. Now THAT would have never fit.

joske

Why wouldn't Coda be believable, IN THE MINDS OF THESE WRITERS? Didn't Joey do the same thing with D in S2? She was head over heels with D, she finally got what she had been waiting for, yet she has no problems dating Jack.

I think the scenes in 510 were cut because they came too late and should have been at the beginning of S5. And I don't think they show anything that justifies the P/J affair in S6 or a buildup to the finale.

It's fine for you to look for hints in other scenes to justify the ending, but what it all comes down is 'given all DC's history do I buy what tptb wants to sell to me?' NO, I don't buy that J would have dated Jack, I don't buy that D/J wouldn't have contacted each other during summer between S5 and 6, that D and J would have dated other people during that summer, that J would obsess over that Coda kiss over the summer after S4, that Bessie wouldn't have done her job in 222, that P/J would last that long in S4, that after S5 and half of S6 P was still hung up on Joey, that P and D who had come to a good understanding in S5 would have had a Christmas dinner without talking to each other, that J had ALWAYS been running from Pacey, that D would still have feelings for J at the end of S3 and 4, that D would have jumped in Jen's arms in S5, that D and J would be OK with just the ending they got, etc Like I said it's fine for you to look for hints but with one scene or line it could be undone...that's DC for you.

[ 03-28-2004: Message edited joske ]

Sugz

Its not that you didnt buy that stuff joske, its that you didnt LIKE that stuff. You keep getting the two confused.

And cut scenes are cut for time, period. If theyre filmed theyre meant to be in there. They wont film a scene that they know theyre not going to use and they dont switch around an episode so drastically in post production that they cut entire scenes based ont he fact that they 'dont fit'. The only time that something is cut on the basis of it not fitting is a line or two in the middle of a scene, like in the finale when Joeys words were giving it away too early that she'd choose Pacey. And if a line or a scene is cut 99% of the time its nothing storyline altering.

joske

If you bought the stuff in 610, like P/D not even exchanging one word after what happened in S5, then I guess you are someone who buys EVERYTHING as long as it justifies the ending, which I think you do.

Lots of fans don't buy it and saw this as an insult to viewers'intelligence. Apparently...

Sugz

Joske your thinly veiled insults are like anvils.

*sigh*

I didnt say I accept EVERYTHING. What I said was that it seems you dont "buy" anything, you listed a number of things from season 2 on so apparently it's you who doesnt accept anything that happens unless its up to your standards and your liking. There are many thing that I thought were ridiculous but there were also things that happened that I didnt like but I understood, like Joey and Pacey breaking up in season 4. I also do believe that the writers were the storytellers and you can tell a story whichever way you please so things like Joey and Dawson not talking over a summer or Joey dating Jack, its not like they were lunatic notions, they were just things you didnt want to happen. It doesnt maen they were absolutely unbelievable. I didnt like Coda but hey, it couldve happened. I think sometimes your so bias joske that you dont even recognize that every single gripe you have against the show can be basically chalked up to the fact that the writers didnt write it the way you wouldve liked it, and that just doenst hold up because just because you wanted to see something and it didn thappen doesnt make the whole show a disaster and if you feel it did, well its your own fault for watching,

COOLCAT200

Well I agree alot of scenes are cut cause of time but I did feel some are cut for other reasons from time to time when they go back to watch.

COOLCAT200

See this is 1 of the reasons I like you Sugz you are honest and real. Anyway To me personally admittedly being a D/Jer I love this episode. But Them saying good bye was a big deal cause these 2 have been best friends for who knows how long have been through a lot and they were saying good-bye for what they thought was gonna be a long time. I thought it was nice how they watched E.T 1 last time and talked about things like they did.

[ 03-29-2004: Message edited COOLCAT200 ]

[ 03-29-2004: Message edited COOLCAT200 ]

Sugz

Te premise of Coda is besides the point really, I mean I dont necessarily think the episode as a stand alone was stupid because Dawson and Joey did act lke the Dawson and Joey of old but in context with the rest of the season it was ridiculous. After all, they'd barely been friends all season withthe occassional chat here and there and Joey was just dumped by her long time boyfriend, plus I dont see how people who hated Joey talking about how she becomes 15 with Dawson LOVE this episode where they basi ally revert back to age 15 but the point is that even though I didnt like the episode I cant exactly say that I dont "buy" it and that it was soemthing that just could never happen, of course it could, just like anything that happened on this show COULD and did happen and we as viewers just have to accept it we can like or dislike it but we cant write it off just because we dont like it.

Cleveland Rocks

Joske, I have a question for you..

Regarding Pacey and Joey..

I am curious what your take is on the Pacey/Joey relationship.. Do you feel that they were genuinely in love with each other? Just curious because I have heard you talk about how unbelievable it was that they lasted as long as they did at the end of season three/all of season four..

Cuz the thing is, if you do not buy the fact that Pacey and Joey were deeply in love with each other, then it does prove that you will only believe things that the writers create, ONLY if it serves for your benefit and preference..

joske

Oh Cleveland, do I buy that P/J were in love in S4? Yes, but do I buy that given DC's histroy it would have lasted that long? No way.

Of course you and your friends having seen the ending are trying to see this big connection over the 6 seasons which it wasn't. Had D/J ended up together- the tacked on one like we got for P/J, comparable to Coda when the show risked to be over due to the pending strike- I am sure some D/J fans could list from the 6 seasons signs, foreshadowings, etc to prove their right.

I am looking at this series from writers'point of view. The only thing they were after was shock, sensationalistic moments, even if it meant changing history, assassinate characters, even if it was contradicted 1 or 2 episodes before.

Like any viewer I am entitled to buy a storyline or not and contrary to what Sugz says, writers do not have free reign to portray a character the way they want because it fits their next plot. Like many fans have said here and elsewhere D/J not contacting each other after what was said in 523 was the ultimate slap in the face, the ultimate insult to viewers'intelligence. I don't have to accept that and it shows exactly the writers'plans. And it always came down to that with these writers. They throw a situation to the viewers which they don't care whether it is believable. Even Katie and James protested hearing the story and disagreed that this could ever happen but they just laughed it off as another prank of these untalented so called writers. They were tired of fighting.

Do I buy the Eve storyline? No way and so did the actors at that time, they protested and the writers were fired.

They wanted to go away from D/J in S3 which I can accept, but they should at least have it done in character. But it wouldn't be that spicy anymore and spice was the only thing they were interested besides catering to a newfound audience who didn't care as long as they got what they wanted.

Also I will never buy the ending because basically it was a joke. D/J = soulmates? My ass, they had ridiculed and killed that story for 4 years. It had lost its appeal for a long time in the hands of these hacks. The same with P/J=together? Just as bad as the D/J story over the last 4 years. Which strengthens my belief that they went with this ending knowing they had messed up big.

Basically by the end of S4, they had explored all possibilities: D/Jen, P/Jen, D/J, P/J, P/An, nothing was left unexplored and basically all they did in S5 and 6 was recycling and recycling. All major events had a link to happenings in earlier seasons.

What this show basically suffered from was: first, that it lacked a long term direction. Each writer could insert his personal bias and noone cared, because there wasn't a direction. Second: despite using the words growing up a hundred times, no character was allowed to do so.

And quoting Katie , I'll give you another one of hers, though it is rather paraphrased: "If this show doesn't end with D/J, I don't know what those 6 years were for."

Basically S6 was a repeat of S3: let the viewers guess. We'll give some D/J and P/J smooching followed by "A huge mistake" and "I don't feel it"... both camps perfectly in balance for the big fight. In S3 we had a jealous J of Jen and of Nikki, to keep things in balance. Joey was a sphinx when it came to her have romantic feelings because it all had to burst during sweeps. Throwing in a big P/D fight, throw in a wedding. They even went that far in recycling that J repeated her words about running from 323. The only thing they didn't repeat was Joey's jealousy of what soulmates have like AJ/Morgan and those 2 at Witch Island, because repeating this would give one camp too much and would allude that soulmates do end up together.

julialex

Joske, I've always been pretty condescending towards DC. I've never thought it was ever intended to be anything other than a commercial product aimed at young consumers. I've always assumed the writers were paid to keep the audience devoted enough to allow the marketing department to sell the show to advertisers. I think the reason it got such a grip on fans like us had much more to do with the charismatic cast, a couple of very addictive love stories and the hilarious synergy that developed between the online fans and the writing staff.

Your perspective on the whole thing really baffles me however. You almost seem to be on a rage filled vendetta against this show. You HATE this show passionately, you seem to HATE large groups of the fans. What exactly did you feel was so scandalously destroyed by the writers in later years? Did you honestly think this show was going to make a grand artistic statement about "growing up" that would live for generations?

It's hard to believe this is what has you so stirred up. Since everything in your many critiques revolves around the potential greatness of Dawson and Joey, I've always assumed you are just unable to move past a major case of Shipper's Betrayal.But even that doesn't seem to account for how angry you are about the whole thing.

notsomuch

So basically, no ending would have satisfied you. I also agree that after everything that DJ did and said to each other over the last four years them ending up together would not make sense.
The difference in the PJ story is that other than breaking up, they didn't keep hurting each other and making grandiose statements that they never followed through on. The way the story was told, that they both still harbored feelings for each other but because they each thought the other had moved on, they moved on too, makes sense.

julialex

I also never understood Joske's contention that D&J not calling each other over the summer made no sense. That was really one of the few realistic lights that shone through. I think after high school the number one way relationships fall apart is people going off to pursue their interests and just unconciously losing touch. People forget to call their parents pretty regularly, why not their childhood confidants? It's so completely natural, even though it eventually degrades those relationships. It's just the way life is.