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Old 03-26-2004, 10:02 AM
  #46
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I thought after the Rehab episode the writers may go down that road but it never happened.
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Old 03-26-2004, 10:41 AM
  #47
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I wonder if they had written a fun romance for Dawson and Audrey, if the DJ fans would have accepted it. Joske always claims that his only beef with the DC writers is their laziness and lack of talent. He would have accepted anything they wrote if DJ had been resolved and any new Dawson romance was well done. I have to say I don't believe this for a second. ANY time a Dawson romance was hinted at by spoilers, Joske and most of the other DJ regulars hopped all over it, before there was any writing for us to judge it by, explaining why it was all but a criminal act to ask DJ fans to accept it. I am sure that if Dawson had been linked with the "**** actress", Joske would have been leading the charge against it.

Like I said, I'm following the endstages of the Angel fandom right now. All the news outlets have announced that Sarah Michelle Geller will NOT be appearing on the Angel finale. But B/A fans are not even considering the possibility. In their minds it's all part of a huge fake out. Her appearance is being kept secret. And she will be appearing for a grand smooshy ecstatic shipper climax. There's no evidence for this. There's tons of evidence against this. But to hardcore shippers, believing they will be validated is almost a religious faith.

There's no logic to hardcore shipping. It's pure emotion. I think maybe that's why Joske can't see how illogical his rants against the writers really are.
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Old 03-26-2004, 11:09 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by COOLCAT200:
<STRONG>I thought after the Rehab episode the writers may go down that road but it never happened.</STRONG>
I thought so too. I wish they would have.

I also agree that even if Dawson and Joey would have been resolved officially in some way earlier on in the series, many D/J fans still wouldn't have accepted Dawson with anyone else but Joey, and of course, that is their choice.. But, for some to use the lack of resolution as a crutch as to why they could not accept Dawson with anyone else is also a little naive. Just admitting that you want Dawson and Joey together no matter what is an honest response and one that you don't have to cover up by using other excuses.
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Old 03-26-2004, 11:18 AM
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If you could read well, Julia, you would see that the **** actress referred to Natasha as D was never involved with Audrey. Same goes for Sugz.

I was just saying that the writers post S2 never gave D/J a chance but shamelessly showed their P/J bias through by having them talk about their past for 1 episode while they only gave D/J 3 minutes to discuss their past and never had them have one serious convo for 4 seasons about their past romantic times. That is what I call manipulative writing to avoid some things happening because "it was too predictable". As for the P/J storyline it was one big joke that after what happened in S5 a whole year and a half was to be disregarded in order for a stupid finale to make sense. So Sugz what I meant is that 'chemistry' has to fill the void of contradicting storylines for 18 months and that director probably like Kevin only fell for pure physical chemistry rather than stories making sense.
Apparently that director is where he belongs: in soap operas where chemistry has to cover up contradicting storylines and manipulative writing. Maybe that's why for soap operas there is only one rule: do not think of what happened before because it doesn't make sense.
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Old 03-26-2004, 11:21 AM
  #50
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I think by "**** actress," joske meant Natasha. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I also thought that James and Busy played off each other well, and I enjoyed their scenes together much more than I did Josh and Busy’s scenes, so I would have enjoyed seeing Dawson and Audrey hook up. Audrey, who had started out as a breath of fresh air in the beginning of Season Five, was essentially ruined as a character once she became Pacey’s girlfriend, and I do agree that the writers very likely thought that Pacey and Audrey would be a well-liked couple given the popularity of both characters, but I think they fizzled as a couple, and they had no chemistry together.

I think part of the fault lies with us fans, because once we grew to love a certain couple, we simply didn’t want to see those characters with any other people. I know that I never gave Pacey and Joey a chance until the very end because I loved Dawson and Joey and Pacey and Andie so much, and I hated all the other couplings on the show, but let’s face it, those couplings were also bad couplings with bad actors like Oliver Hudson, so I doubt that I would have ever warmed up to those couplings anyway.
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Old 03-26-2004, 11:38 AM
  #51
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Well, I thought Dawson and Gretchen were ok cause being that in season 4 Joey was with Pacey I mean I did not love them but I was glad they gave Dawson a love interest and a story line with Mr. Brooks. I enjoyed Dawson and Jen in season 5 as well but my heart was always truly with D/J I could never give up hope on my favorite couple of all time cause no couple ever captivated me or made me cheer for them the way they did I just had such emotion and passion about it. Oh BTW Julia I was on another board and I just got done reading a great and funny debate you had with someone named WTH18 last June and it was very entertaining to read. ClevelandRocks I myself have no problems admitting I wanted Dawson and Joey together no matter what but the show also did make sure they never went to long without giving the D/J fans something to hang on to weather it was a piece of your heart speech or Coda or lots of other stuff. Joske I agree they never gave D/J a real chance after season 2 they more then once made it look like they were gonna get another chance but it never happened fully. I spent two summers in a row happy thinking they were gonna another shot. Even Pacey said in the Long-Goodbye he thinks D/J should get there shot.

[ 03-26-2004: Message edited COOLCAT200 ]
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Old 03-26-2004, 11:58 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by joske:
<STRONG>As for the P/J storyline it was one big joke that after what happened in S5 a whole year and a half was to be disregarded in order for a stupid finale to make sense. </STRONG>
On the P/J thread, I was recently viewing two very specific cut scenes in season five that is pure evidence that Pacey and Joey were always a definite possibility in bringing them back together romantically in the future. Pacey was clearly not over Joey in these scenes and there were strong hints that Joey was also not over Pacey. Audrey is very blunt in communicating her thoughts that Pacey and Joey BOTH are not over each other. Again, these are cut scenes that were never shown, but it is proof that the writers had the intention of always leaving open the possibility of bringing back Pacey and Joey romantically. And if you read these scenes, you would know that late season six P/J was not a shock and the writers way of pulling this "out of nowhere" in order to create the triangle.

Those cut scenes proved to me that Pacey and Joey were always in the picture of possibility in the future.. There is no way that I feel like the six season Pacey and Joey romance came out of nowhere. As a matter of fact, I even feel like it was always the intention of bringing back P/J just from viewing those cut scenes.
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Old 03-26-2004, 12:06 PM
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As for the P/J storyline it was one big joke that after what happened in S5 a whole year and a half was to be disregarded in order for a stupid finale to make sense. So Sugz what I meant is that 'chemistry' has to fill the void of contradicting storylines for 18 months and that director probably like Kevin only fell for pure physical chemistry rather than stories making sense.
Well it's no more ridiculous than ignoring a whole two seasons worth of events just to make it seem like Dawson was the only person Joey ever really loved in s5.
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Old 03-26-2004, 12:13 PM
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I had forgotten about Dawson and Gretchen. I actually really liked them as a couple, but their relationship had “temporary” written all over it, and the writers ruined them by having Dawson suddenly start pining for Joey again.
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Old 03-26-2004, 12:13 PM
  #55
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One of these days, I'd love to see Joske post something like: I really loved Dawson and Joey together. I had a fantasy of how I wanted to see their story play out. It makes me angry that the writers didn't write the story I wanted and now I will never get to see it.

It's really as simple as that. Why the big need to cover it up with the goofiest charade possible - trying to prove that there was a great artistic purpose in this tv teen romance that was viciously denied by an evil conspiracy of PJ loving monsters? Virtually every poster that comes along pokes another hole in your logic, yet your rage continues unabated.

Coolcat, I remember that debate. It was fun. I wonder who WTH really was. My guess was either dc_dude or Wind.
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Old 03-26-2004, 12:20 PM
  #56
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Personally, I feel that if the writers felt that Dawson and Joey weren’t viable as a romantic couple, for whatever reason, they should have just ended that notion and had them go back to being friends, instead of cynically stringing the fans along and having them spend more time apart and estranged over the years than spending time as friends and confidantes.
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Old 03-26-2004, 01:30 PM
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Dawson and Joey weren’t viable as a romantic couple, for whatever reason, they should have just ended that notion ....says Jerry

And you know what,they never gave any reason, they were just too cowardice.

Cleveland, the fact these scenes were cut means that they at that moment in the show weren't fitted. Do you want me to bring up what had been cut in Mind Games or in 415 or in 521 to show their "plans"?

As an example of how tptb "works": D and J were supposed to have sex in Promicide, but James and Katie declared them morons and refused it. So don't think anything great or plans for the future about these morons as their mind was only with spicing up stories, never about making good stories in character. They hated the characters they had to write for and probably hated the actors for giving criticism to their writing. That these hacks still had people who watched to this day remains an enigma and proves my theory that it would always have enough viewers and that strengthened tptb to continue their crap throughout S5 and 6. There was applause for The Long Goodbye,the figures for 601/2 were the highest in history since 100, do you think it taught them a lesson? No way. They rather served more crap ala J and her mugger. They knew we, a small part of the 2 or 3 million were waiting for D/J or P/J to be resolved and this gave them permission to write the crap they gave us and the network let them do. Sometimes I wonder how crappy stories should be before they are taken off.


Julia, I was more of a D/J fan than a Dawson or Joey fan. These 2 had so much potential and their story in the right hands could have survived another season or 2. I am talking about the genuine, original D and J, not about the caricatures gina and co made of them. They could have them break up during S2 with a real reason rather than this stupid "I need to find myself" and jumping in Jack's arms. What I liked about S1 and 2 was that we saw reasons for what they did. Joey had her abandonment issues written all over her. Oh well there were jsut so many ways to keep it interesting. D could have left Capeside after S3 and found a new group of friends; he could have followed Gretchen to Boston...there were many possibilities to make stories after S2 or 3 and with the right writers D/J could still have a nice story in S6. Joey could have learned to be independent and face her father and their history; she could have gone to Paris during a summer, IOW there was a nice story that was left untold because it would show that these characters were growing up,learning from their mistakes, which to you may seem dull, but as I said it would never go below the bad figures for S4 and on. There could be romances along the way with buildup and which failed but not because of the Joey stigma. Joey now let herself be treated by Eddie like ***** but with D each word could start a new world war.

So yes I liked D/J for what could have happened and for what happened during S1 and parts of S2. For myself I don't consider S3-6 part of my DC because the ones in charge didn't know the characters they wrote for; they just thought they were dough in their hands and they could do with them whatever would 'sell' in a third rank soap opera. And till this day the S1 and 2 and the S6 premiere had the greatest fan response which shows that people enjoyed the idyllic, unique D/J story (And P/A) despite what YOU believe. Too bad tptb never admitted it.

[ 03-26-2004: Message edited joske ]
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Old 03-26-2004, 01:32 PM
  #58
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I dont see how Joey and Pacey getting back together after season 5 was such a huge inconsistency or a revision of history. The problem to some in season 5 was that Joey and Paceys past wasnt acknowledged, that didnt mean that in the future they couldnt possible rekindle feelings. I mean joske, you have a problem with Joey and Pacey getting back togehter in season 6 after they ignored their relationship (not each other!) in season 5 and fell out of love yet you wouldve had no problem with Joey and Dawson getting back together after Joey was visible in love with another man for a year? Contradiction, yet again.

What was so crazy about Joey and Pacey getting together again, how did season 5 viably knock that possiblity out?
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Old 03-26-2004, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry D:
<STRONG>Personally, I feel that if the writers felt that Dawson and Joey weren’t viable as a romantic couple, for whatever reason, they should have just ended that notion and had them go back to being friends, instead of cynically stringing the fans along and having them spend more time apart and estranged over the years than spending time as friends and confidantes.</STRONG>
I agree,but I think the problem was they wanted the show to end with them together romantically,so they wanted to keep it in the audience's mind that they were destined to be together in the end and maybe they felt if they went back to just being friends without all the drama it might be harder to convince the audience they really did belong together.I mean wasn't that what they hoped to do with Pacey and Joey in s5 give them this angst free friendship in the hopes that fans of the couple would forget that they were once more. Of course in the finale they clearly gave up on that notion so obviously it would have been nice if they'd come to that conclusion sooner, but oh well.
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Old 03-26-2004, 01:50 PM
  #60
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Cleveland, the fact these scenes were cut means that they at that moment in the show weren't fitted. Do you want me to bring up what had been cut in Mind Games or in 415 or in 521 to show their "plans"?

As an example of how tptb "works": D and J were supposed to have sex in Promicide, but James and Katie declared them morons and refused it.
The differnce is that the season 5 scenes that Cleveland is talking about were filmed, and then put on the DC website for fans to see. They weren't just preliminary drafts of the script and then scrapped.
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