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Old 03-25-2004, 04:12 PM
  #31
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Thats true enough Jerry but as a writer you dont settle on a couple with the aim to bore everyone to tears. Im sure the writers were trying to score another shipper worthy couple with pairs like Joey and Eddie, Pacey and Karen and Pacey and Audrey, but you dont know if itll work until you try right? Which is why they fizzled, the downside is that it takes time to develop those relationships and see if they work. The alternative was sticking with a rotation of Pacey/Joey, Dawson/Joey and PAcey/Andie which you can only go so far with in 6 seasons. So I really think the writesr were in a rock and a hard place when it came to couples because as fans we're very fickle.
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Old 03-25-2004, 09:34 PM
  #32
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With the exception of Audrey and Pacey's sister(her name escapes me) the non-cast members of the couples rarely had any interaction with anyone except their romantic partner. It's difficult if not impossible to care about a character that really isn't part of the entire show. So even thought they introduced alternative couples they never were given a 100% chance, so they shouldn't have expected to get another D/J or P/J or even a P/A
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Old 03-25-2004, 10:47 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry D:
<STRONG> But can anyone honestly say they enjoyed the other romances on the show, like Pacey and Karen, or Pacey and Audrey, or Joey and Eddie, or Jen and Charlie, or Joey and Charlie, or Dawson and Natasha? All of those so-called “romances” were about as exciting as watching paint dry, and they bored me to tears, and that’s what I call lazy writing. I would have much preferred seeing stories that had more depth to them, and would have allowed us to know the characters that we cared about better, rather than seeing those characters in pointless romances that wasted our time and insulted our intelligence. That’s what I meant when I said that this show devoted way too much time to romantic entanglements.</STRONG>
God Jerry I just completely agree that is part of the reason I hate season 6 I just could not get into any of the couples at all it was the first season ever I wanted to change the channel. In the first 5 I would never even think of it.
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Old 03-26-2004, 07:22 AM
  #34
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The problem with other romances on the show were that there wasn't any buildup with them; the hacks just threw them onto our faces: no longing, no friendship before. The second problem was that most were out of character so noone could "buy" them. Did they have any good stories together before their first kiss? They came out of the blue. I found the beginning of P/Emma well done but of course this had to be dropped instantly since tptb had to build up the story of the finale which they had just decided. I don't think their aim was to have a new fanbase for each new couple; they intentionally never wrote a good romance for either of the 3...to keep their only story for 4 years alive: the triangle. What a waste.

Lazy writing indeed, Jerry and episode fillers because they couldn't tell anything new...which was the main characteristic for the last 4 seasons.
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Old 03-26-2004, 08:04 AM
  #35
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I disagree. I just think its stupid to believe that the writers of a show would purposely sabotage themselves and write crap filler stories that they knwe would go nowhere. For Jen or Jack, maybe, but I think that in cases like Pacey and Karen and Pacey and Audrey the writers were hoping they'd catch on and become really popular so that they could go on with the other "triangle" couple without upsetting too many people. There's no doubt in my mind that Pacey and Karen and Pacey and Audrey were both something the writers tred to use to get Pacey and Joey fans in season 5 to switch over to whoever Paceys new "love of his life" was, just like havin g him come home in season 5 with Melanie was a way of saying "Hey PJers, Paceys over it, you get over it too", it just didnt work. Karent was never meant to be shipped offi n a yellow taxi, she just never caught on and Audrey and Pacey were supposed to be white hot since so many fans seemed to enjoy Audrey but that didnt live up to the standard either.

Point is the writers had to go with what was popular. It wasnt their fault if a couple didnt catch on, they could try it out but what the fans wanted wasnt up to them and what worked was going back to Pacey and Joey in season 6. You cant force something that doesnt work. In Karens case you couldve written her as a carbon copy of Joey Potter but the actress' chemistry with Josh Jackson just wasnt there, she came off as far too bitchy.

And You cant really say the writers are incapable of building up a romance and capturing fans' attention, look at Pacey and Joey.

[ 03-26-2004: Message edited Sugz ]
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Old 03-26-2004, 08:10 AM
  #36
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I had posted this quote on a different thread but it fits well on this one as well. It's from the director of both the Mitch Dies episode and the DJ Have Sex episode:

Quote:
McNeil, who now directs One Tree Hill, notes that while a series like Dawson's Creek may have an original blueprint as to which couples will ultimately be together, destiny often has other ideas. "I believe that Dawson's Creek was [originally] conceived with Dawson and Joey being star-crossed lovers," the director theorizes. "And over the course of the show [it evolved to where] Joey and Pacey were really meant to be together. I thought the series finale handled it beautifully by bringing them all back together. Dawson was allowed to have his own dream and live in his fantasy world as a filmmaker. He got to have Joey in his world, but in the real world, Pacey got Joey. I thought that was great."
I think it explains the way the show evolved very succinctly,and more accurately than all the sour grapes of Joske's diatribes. A dramatic writer only has control over some elements of his story, especially on serial television. He can write the plot and dialogue but he can't control the actor's talents, the audience response or the synergy between those two things. DC was probably the perfect example where an original premise was scrapped because of this natural process.

I agree that all the peripheral romances on DC were worthless. The only interesting ones were the ones that involved a merger of main characters, as wbviewer said. It's not lazy writing that caused the others to be so bland. It was more poor casting and the futility of trying to divert the audience from wanting what they wanted.

The Pacey Audrey story might have worked if it hadn't been such a blatant and unsubtle attempt to buy off the PJ fans. Actually if they had done it right, Audrey would have been a wonderful foil for Dawson, as she had the yin yang chemistry with him that she never had with Pacey. They could have started her off with Pacey, leaving the PJ angst intact as an undercurrent, then used all the complications of that to spin her off with Dawson. It certainly would have kept the audience more involved than the stale DJ leftovers they fed them throughout season 5. And the fun actress playing Audrey could have been put to much better use.
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Old 03-26-2004, 08:50 AM
  #37
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Sugz, P/J had a buildup and the writers had invested time and effort in that storyline (To the point of throwing contrivedly D and Andie out for that to happen) which never happened again with other couples. Because of history (Dawson never got over Joey, which was ridiculous in S4 after what happened)) ALL D's romantic stories were doomed and I don't think you can gather fans for his affair with a **** actress. P/Karen was the perfect example of throwing it in fans'faces, no introduction, no signs of friendship, only hero Pacey AGAIN. As to P/Au same thing: they have 2 convos and oops they are kissing and have sex. I stick to my opinion that tptb never invested time and effort for any other couple and certainly not D/Jen or J/Eddie or J/Charlie.

Oh and Julia your quote comes from a DIRECTOR who directed 2 or 3 episodes and who was never involved in other seasons. I talked to that female director of 603 asn asked her how much she knows about DC and the past seasons. She answered that there was a triangle and she knew about D and J and that was it.

[ 03-26-2004: Message edited joske ]
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Old 03-26-2004, 08:54 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by julialex:
<STRONG>

The Pacey Audrey story might have worked if it hadn't been such a blatant and unsubtle attempt to buy off the PJ fans. Actually if they had done it right, Audrey would have been a wonderful foil for Dawson, as she had the yin yang chemistry with him that she never had with Pacey. </STRONG>
ITA with this. For me, Pacey and Audrey represented a ridiculous attempt to try and somehow please P/J fans, which backfired because I think the more we saw Pacey and Audrey, the more we missed P/J..

I also think Dawson and Audrey had great potential as a romantic couple. There was just something there that I liked. Can't really explain it outside of the fact that I liked how Dawson relaxed a bit whenever he was with her and I also mildly forgot about his self absorbed ways when he was with Audrey.
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Old 03-26-2004, 09:01 AM
  #39
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Sugz, P/J had a buildup and the writers had invested time and effort in that storyline (To the point of throwing contrivedly D and Andie out for that to happen) which never happened again with other couples. Because of history (Dawson never got over Joey, which was ridiculous in S4 after what happened)) ALL D's romantic stories were doomed and I don't think you can gather fans for his affair with a **** actress. P/Karen was the perfect example of throwing it in fans'faces, no introduction, no signs of friendship, only hero Pacey AGAIN. As to P/Au same thing: they have 2 convos and oops they are kissing and have sex. I stick to my opinion that tptb never invested time and effort for any other couple and certainly not D/Jen or J/Eddie or J/Charlie.
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Old 03-26-2004, 09:02 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by joske:
[QB]Sugz, P/J had a buildup and the writers had invested time and effort in that storyline (To the point of throwing contrivedly D and Andie out for that to happen) which never happened again with other couples. Because of history (Dawson never got over Joey, which was ridiculous in S4 after what happened)) ALL D's romantic stories were doomed and I don't think you can gather fans for his affair with a **** actress. P/Karen was the perfect example of throwing it in fans'faces, no introduction, no signs of friendship, only hero Pacey AGAIN. As to P/Au same thing: they have 2 convos and oops they are kissing and have sex. I stick to my opinion that tptb never invested time and effort for any other couple and certainly not D/Jen or J/Eddie or J/Charlie.

I dont disagree with any of this. Although I think you're way out of line for calling someone a "**** actress", Im guessing you mean Busy Phillips, are you insulting Audrey or Busy? Geez joske, tahts not cool.

My point was that the writers were capable of writing buildup, they did it with Joey and Pacey, and they did build up Pacey and Karen having Pacey fall for Karen and the situation with Danny occur and Im sure they meant it to go further but people were just not impressed with Pacey and Karen so they nixed it. Im not disagreeing that most of the late series hookups between main and tertiary characters were badly written filler crap but I dont completely blame the writers, most of th time those stories were nixed because the fans just werent latching on and there's nothing a writer can do about that.

Quote:
Oh and Julia your quote comes from a DIRECTOR who directed 2 or 3 episodes and who was never involved in other seasons. I talked to that female director of 603 asn asked her how much she knows about DC and the past seasons. She answered that there was a triangle and she knew about D and J and that was it.

Exactly! These quotes are coming from the outside looking in, not one of us jaded and bias shippers which makes the point all the more valid. Even someone who was only involved with a few episodes could see that a show that started out about Dawson and Joey slowly turned its tide and becamse about a different couple. Thats as good of proof as any that when it comes down to it. it's really about natural progression and chemsitry rather than an original vision.
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Old 03-26-2004, 09:12 AM
  #41
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Had this guy seen S4? Or is he just one of the guys who falls for pure "chemistry" (Subjective) rather than for what is said and done?

They COULD have made D/J's story well but they not only destroyed them in S3 but again in S4 , 5 and 6. They were the classical backfall when May came in sight, throwing them together with some kiss at the last possible minute. They had destroyed them with the Mitch story, the D/Jen story and the circumstances for the S6 premiere. How could they everhave a chance with these hacks if they never tried???

And did the guy see S5 and how P and J acted? Did he see the ridiculous Merry Mayhem episode?
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Old 03-26-2004, 09:14 AM
  #42
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Yes, I think onscreen couples "click" probably for somewhat different reasons than real life couples. For instance, I don't think it's necessarily true in real life that people with similar personalities make bad couples. But I definitely think it's a bad thing in a dramatic couple. Pacey and Audrey were both extroverted comedian types with hidden hearts of gold. Together there was absolutely no dramatic impact. Whereas Audrey's goofy bawdiness would have made a nice contrast with Dawson's arrogance and reserve.

What makes a couple appeal to one person and not another I think depends on a lot of subliminal factors. We aren't looking for a mirror perfect reflection of reality, but rather something that triggers an emotional response.

I've often read some Dawson fans question why this character is so disliked and I think that also comes down to the same thing. For many people he set off bad memories of selfish, arrogant men we've known or had awful experiences with in relationships. But for Joske, Jerry, Logan and a great many other online male fans, he seemed to trigger memories of their own adolescent selves and they always tended to view him in a gentler light because of that. Again, an example of the kinds of things writers can't control.

Joske, I know that was one director's opinion. I don't get your point. I think it's a good quote that explains the natural progression of the stories on the show. Do you think people need particular credentials in order to make good observations about DC?
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Old 03-26-2004, 09:19 AM
  #43
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You know what I agree Cleveland Rocks I never saw much chemistry from P/Audrey But I did see some with her and Dawson.
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Old 03-26-2004, 09:19 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by joske:
<STRONG>Had this guy seen S4? Or is he just one of the guys who falls for pure "chemistry" (Subjective) rather than for what is said and done?

They COULD have made D/J's story well but they not only destroyed them in S3 but again in S4 , 5 and 6. </STRONG>

Wow! Best.Contradictory.Post.EVER. Do you even see what you just posted joske?

You condemn this director for being "one of those guys who just falls for pure 'chemistry' rather than whats said and done" and then you yourself admit that Dawson and Joey were destroyed for 4 seasons in a row. So...wouldnt you be "one of those guys who just fell for pure chemistry rather than what was said and done" because, according to you, what was "said and done" as far as Dawson and Joey was...destruction for 4 seasons straight, surely that wasnt what you were so in love with?

[ 03-26-2004: Message edited Sugz ]
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Old 03-26-2004, 09:50 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by COOLCAT200:
<STRONG>You know what I agree Cleveland Rocks I never saw much chemistry from P/Audrey But I did see some with her and Dawson.</STRONG>
Yes, I do think the writers could have expanded something with Dawson and Audrey. There was something there worth exploring. They really did bounce off of each other and they both pulled out the positive traits in each other. Too bad the writers did not go with this..
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