clarkson_fan

Very good points.

That episode definitely was a bad one because they did not handle it well at all. I think they wanted to make Pacey look like the bad guy a little bit to prop Dawson up so it makes sense that Joey even thinks of kissing him again by 4.23.

Which still pisses me off because it's only been a few weeks since she and Pacey broke up and they do that? And then open season 5 with her fretting about Dawson and no even seeming to think about Pacey? The reason we call that the season of amnesia for them is because of that bull.

Like we get two episodes of their OBVIOUS heartbreak and then Pacey leaves and Joey is still hurt but not enough to not kiss Dawson? Like please.

You don't react how Joey reacted to their break up and then seem to completely forget about it soon after. No wonder Pacey said in 6.15 how "a couple of months here or there wouldn't have hurt unlike the lifetime over Dawson" because SERIOUSLY. Although they made Pacey seemingly forget her too by the start of season 5, having already slept with another woman by then, so the same could be said about him.

It was all just handled so badly by the writers.

But yes, Joey was crying when she broke up with Dawson both times - although the second time was about what happened with her dad, not Dawson - but she never said her "heart broke into a thousand pieces" and she did the breaking up with Dawson both times and not Pacey, and she could barely keep it together in the car afterward, and still was trying to get back with Pacey in 4.21 with the small glimmer of hope. And then her saying "how am I supposed to enjoy it [her life] without you?" like she was still holding on because she didn't want to break up at all (which makes her kissing Dawson in 4x23 all the more baffling.)

Butterfly85

I agree that Joey kissing Dawson after everything makes no sense (along with her being so obsessed with him staying in town but again, that's that familiar security blanket thing with no growth and just wanting to be comfortable) but even more so when she was secretly hoping her and Pacey would get back together. Then being crushed and disappointed when the guy just wanted to ask Pacey about working on his boat. Her mind and heart was still on Pacey but again, D/J kissing at the end of the season was a sloppy, rushed plot point. Everything with Pacey made Joey feel things she has NEVER felt before, and their breakup was one of those things. She wasn't as hurt and destroyed by her other breakups like she was with Pacey. Just like she never had her world rocked or fell so hard for someone like she has with Pacey. They are the love of each other's lives.

3ku11

Few weeks realistically seems quick. But in the context of Joeys characterisation. Not all that surprising she kissed Dawson. I definitely agree she was devastated by the Pacey breakup more then ever was with Dawson in the past. But Dawson was a safe haven. She was vulnerable. And saw Dawson as security. So yeah the pacing was very rushed. But I kinda understood it. I was annoyed by their 2nd break up in Boston.

clarkson_fan

Maybe if they had kissed sometime in season 5 at least after she and Pacey had reconnected, months after when Pacey had also seemingly moved on, that would have been fine.

But yeah so soon after her break up with Pacey was just all wrong. We could look at it as her rushing toward her security blanket in her heartbreak, but I don't get how she would want to kiss even Dawson when she was so recently with Pacey.

I mean, unless we call the kiss a rebound, which...relegating Dawson to a rebound is pretty funny.

And I agree she was never as broken up with her other LIs, even Dawson. Even in 3x01 when she cried at the end of the dock, it was more about Dawson's rejection of her than having true feelings.

Charlie, that professor, Eddie, they were all nothing. Eddie was the closet, I think, but even he was barely a blip on her radar. Maybe some sadness, but that's about it.

Her pseudo-break up with Pacey in 6.18 was her running scared - and while it was stupid that she would ever choose Eddie or any other guy over Pacey (when she chose him over Dawson, her supposed soulmate) is ridiculous, she was still doing it because she found the thing to latch onto to give her an excuse to run because her and Pacey were starting to the process of truly getting back together and it wasn't just something to think about or talk about, and that scared her. Pacey broke her heart, devastated her in a way no one else ever had, so her running scared makes sense.

Even with that Christopher guy in the series finale, she was not even remotely broken up about it, ran when he was going to propose, and she was with him for at least a year or something at that.

They really were the loves of each other's lives.

***BLONDIE***

I think it made sense that she wasn't thinking clearly and did something dumb after the break up. What I thought made no sense was Dawson, claiming to be her friend, claiming to care about her, yet he took complete advantage of her when she was vulnerable, hurt, broken hearted and looking for any kind comfort to make herself feel better. Dawson also did this after Pacey broke up with her too. He didn't run to her to comfort her as a friend. He ran to her for his own selfishness. I don't doubt a part of him enjoyed watching her getting torn down Pacey. IMHO, Dawson done some terrible things, but taking advantage of Joey when she was a lot low point, was just awful. They tried to push it as feelings coming back out. No, I will never see it that way. I saw it as a girl who just got her heart broken and her so called friend didn't even try to stop that kiss from happening. We all know it wouldn't have happened, if she thought there was a chance for her and Pacey to get back together. If the kissed happened months down the road, when she had time to heal and think clearly, then that would have been a whole other story.

3ku11

I don’t think Dawson at his core was a bad person. But he was very petty. Had a feeling. Saw an opportunity to get back at Pacey. I guess writers thought it made sense to them. Joey was emotional. And vulnerable. But yeah it was far too soon. So yeah rushed pacing. I do agree if it was months down the track. When Joey was in a more clearer state of mind. Mean something. But it was pretty atypical of her.

Butterfly85

I agree that Joey was vulnerable over Pacey along with the big change of college coming. So after losing Pacey she also wanted to hold on to her familiar security blanket. Dawson was definitely the rebound guy cause she was just happy at the hope that her and Pacey could get back together. Since S3 Pacey was always the person she really wanted to be with and pretty much settled for Dawson. I agree that Dawson is petty and probably did secretly like when Pacey dumped Joey. He talked down to Joey in TLD about how he won't be there when Pacey uses her for sex, dumps her, acted like she was crazy for even liking Pacey, etc. He always wanted and thought they would fail, and was also jealous of the fact they made a relationship work for almost an entire season as opposed to Dawson's relationship with Joey always being over after a few days or less. Dawson has always been selfish and thought about himself first. He was fine sleeping with Joey even though he had a girlfriend, now that is truly ruining and tainting your first time with someone.

clarkson_fan

Those are good points about Joey. Her going back to her security blanket because he was there and Pacey wasn't and she was probably missing him like crazy and Dawson is really the next best thing to her. But as we see in the series, if it's a choice between them both, she chooses Pacey both times, and both times that's it for her, Pacey is her ultimate choice.

Pacey was scared she'd never choose him - both times - and that she would regret it if she did and she never did, not once. Did she hold onto Dawson unnecessarily? Yes. But was she ever in love with Dawson again after season 2? I don't think so.

For me Joey was so scared and Dawson was easy and always there. She wasn't in love with him, but she did love him, and confused it for romantic love because maybe she was attracted to him at one point and they just had a closer friendship than usual that, with our heteronormative society, means a guy and girl must be in love if they're that close.

But then she experiences real love with Pacey and she wanted to be with him, not Dawson. But real love is scary and it can so easily go wrong and one can get their heart broken so easily - as evidence by the end of season 4 - so Joey still had that attachment to Dawson, and it fueled Pacey's insecurities.

And also, who would know Dawson and Joey as well as Pacey, who had been there from the beginning? Who had seen it all go down, had been there for the "soulmate" talk and the back and forth, the never ending proclamations of it, petty jealousies, etc.

So it's understandable that Pacey would think he didn't stand a chance, with Dawson and Joey's ever evolving and ongoing dramatics and intensity surrounding their relationship. (Comments from Andie about how they were each other's first love and that she can never feel the same about Pacey as she did Dawson definitely didn't help.)

Anyway, I don't think Pacey & Joey were ever fully in the right or in the wrong. Pacey letting his insecurities get the best of him was something he had to work through and he let it get the best of him sometimes - like when he picked a fight with Joey in 4x01 and was standoff-ish in 4x02 and so on - but Joey never exactly helped matters when she cared too much about Dawson and Gretchen or cared a little too much about things and Pacey could see that. Also, to me, Joey continually let Pacey know how much she loved him but she didn't always do the best to let Pacey know she didn't love Dawson anymore. Which, again, I think was her holding on to Dawson still because she was scared to fully let go of her security blanket.

Like Dawson was her back up incase things didn't work out with Pacey, which...is kind of what happened because yeah, she definitely never would have wanted to or tried to get with Dawson again if she and Pacey had stayed together. That much was obvious.

Also, I agree about Dawson. I bet he was waiting all year for that break up to happen. I bet he had been hoping Joey would do it, but either way I bet a big part of him was joyful at seeing it and getting to run after Joey. He also even said "I could tell you you're making a huge mistake and all roads will lead back to me.." in the season 3 finale and that was so selfish, and what he probably thought since he "let her go."

I mean, even after the ski trip when he asks Joey if she slept with Pacey, as if he's entitled to that information at all - and the fact that Joey indulges him is...ugh - and then when she tells him the truth in 4x17 and she's all "I don't know, I just didn't want you to think you weren't..." and he goes "the most important person in your life" and it's like? Dude? It's taken until she admits she slept with Pacey almost a year into their relationship for you to somewhat start to accept the fact that you really aren't going to get her back?? It was so ridiculous.

And also yeah, he was all high and mighty and judgmental about Pacey, thinking he was in it for sex, and that there wasn't much more to Pacey & Joey than that, but they end up having the super romantic first time when they're in love, with nothing in the way, their walls down, all of it, and with Dawson it's awkward, stilted, and tainted with the fact that he has a girlfriend. And he can try to paint it anyway he wants in the show, but it doesn't matter if it wasn't serious or that he did it right after they did it, he still had a girlfriend when they sleep together. AND they become each other's only one night stand.

Like? They had all that build up, all that flowery talk, all that expectation of it being perfect the first time they had sex, and it was far from it, and the real romantic first time was Pacey & Joey. Dawson & Joey was always a fantasy and could never live up to the reality.

Butterfly85

Oh man, I forgot when Dawson was disappointed he wasn't "The most important person in Joey's life" when she told him she slept with Pacey. PACEY IS HER BOYFRIEND THAT SHE HAS BEEN WITH FOR MONTHS AND IS IN LOVE WITH HIM. Who the hell are you? She doesn't owe you jack. I already said his weird ass had this creepy obsession with Joey's virginity and acting like he was entitled to it. Weirdo, get a life and F off. I also said before Dawson made Joey the other woman AND a one night stand, plus he wasn't completely honest with her about his situation (but some bitter D/J fans want to lie and paint P/J's first time as him attacking her when he wanted to know if she enjoyed it cause he wants to satisfy her. The nerve RME, or about how the awkwardness of her first time even though the first time can easily be awkward) I usually don't like talking about Dawson's dumb ass this much but I agree with a lot of points in here.

clarkson_fan

Exactly. And the fact that in 4x15 he acknowledges that it's none of his business and extremely personal but still asks it anyway and expects an answer? The worst.

And please, that argument is ridiculous because he was in no way attacking her. It was obvious that his insecurities were, once again, rearing their ugly head. And he was a teenage boy in love and wanted to be amazing for her, and especially for her first time, and I just bet that part of him was scared she'd been wishing it was Dawson.

And like...can you blame him? Also yeah, he handled it poorly and Joey told him what's what - and I love that she pointed out how she was worried how she measured up, that it wasn't just him who had "performance anxiety" as it were.

But anyway, they had an argument, and Joey explained why it was so nice for her. Yeah it was awkward at times as first times can be, but what she describes about him brushing her hair off her forehead and that making her feel safe and protected and loved is pretty big, imo. It speaks to the love they share and that even if it wasn't a perfect first time physically speaking - as most first times rarely are, especially in high school - it was perfect emotionally and that made it perfect for both of them.

Who cares if Joey didn't have the best orgasm of her life her first time? What matters is how in love she was and how meaningful it was and how sweet and caring Pacey was. I bet even though it wasn't perfect it was still a pretty amazing first time compared to what most people get in high school or even out of it, because Joey had such a loving and caring partner, who was kind, gentle and sweet with her. That's what matters, in my opinion.

(Also, she and Pacey had more sex...and I bet as adults when they got back together, they had the best sex of their lives then. Like...an awkward first time does not make it not good or worse than DJ's first time. Lol please.)

3ku11

Making love, and Sex are two different things. Having something as intimate as they did supercedes any pre conceived notion of what Joey perceived of sex.

Azaiya

Wow, so many excellent points (as usual) Butterfly85 and clarkson_fan! Totally agree with all of them.

Just want to add: When Dawson and Joey were in college and it wasn't their first rodeo, there was no chemistry as usual in those dry pecks and even though they did it again (puke) the next morning, it was all just... gross and unnatural. Pacey and Joey were so natural that when Joey starts french-kissing him in A Winter's Tale I almost feel like I need to turn off the TV and give them their privacy! But Dawson and Joey were never that passionate. Not even close. Dawson had the most chemistry with Jen, and I can't even call it sexual chemistry because I found him so hateful at one point that I could not imagine anyone wanting to look at him and do anything but punch him.

But anyway, I digress. Remember how Pacey and Joey were all over each other in The Longest Day? I heard that when Joey was like, "When we're around other people we pretend like nothing's changed but the minute we're alone it turns into this... embarrassing grope fest."

Like, really. Imagine that. Imagine the looks they must have shared when their friends' or siblings' gazes were averted. Imagine how thick that tension must have been when they would sit next to each other or stand close to each other, everyone else talking around them, pretending they were paying attention and participating in the conversations but really being hyper-aware of each other's every move... And then, as soon as the last person left them alone...

And sure, it was awkward their first time, but remember at the beginning of Four Stories when Joey said "All I want to do is go home so we can do it again." All she wants to do? That means she may not have made it to the mountaintop the night before, but she was definitely yodeling while they hiked, ya know??

Remember how Joey jumped on Pacey in Mind Games? Pacey's like, "I don't think I like this turn our relationship has taken. You have no respect for my feelings, we never talk anymore. [...] That doesn't mean you get to use me as a sex object." When the characters say things like this I really pay attention. The show came on at 8 pm so the writers couldn't show them doing too much because Josh and Katie's chemistry would have make it way too inappropriate for the time slot. So they gave us (me and my dirty mind) these little nuggets of gold instead. My imagination just takes off.

We already know they were spending all of their time together, right? That's how they fell in love in the first place. But now they're in a relationship together, they're in love, and Pacey is living with his employed older sister which basically means he had free crib all. the. time.... Joey's very first question to him after she literally tackled him, was "When is Gretchen coming home?" Which only meant, 'Do you think we have time for a quickie?' They weren't trying to have the house to themselves just so they could do it for a second time (like Gretchen assumed when she said, "You did it, didn't you? And now you want to do it again." Honey, please.), they wanted to have the house to themselves so they could do it all night.

And yes, all of this was when they were still in high school and no one really knows what they are doing.

So I said all of that to agree that yes, when they were adults at Joey's apartment... I'll just say that there's this song by R&B artist Trey Songz called "I Bet the Neighbors Know My Name", and I'll just leave it at that.

ChristinaL80

#16 - 3 -Eliminated

Round 19


1. 1x01 - Pilot
Eliminated - Round 10

2. 1x02 - Dance
Eliminated - Round 7

3. 1x03 - Kiss
Eliminated - Round 9

4. 1x04 - Discovery
Eliminated - Round 11

5. 1x06 - Baby
Eliminated - Round 4

6. 1X07 - Detention
Eliminated - Round 8

7. 1x08 - Boyfriend
Eliminated - Round 14

8. 1x10 - Double Date


9. 1x11 - The Scare
Eliminated - Round 1

10. 1x13 - Decisions
Eliminated - Round 12

11. 2x16 - Be Careful What You Wish For
[Eliminated - Round 2

12. 2x22 - Parental Discretion Advised
Eliminated - Round 3

13. 3x01 - Like a Virgin
Eliminated - Round 15

14. 3x02 - Homecoming
Eliminated - Round 13

15. 3x03 - None of the Above
Eliminated - Round 17

16. 3x04 - Home Movies
Eliminated - Round 18

17. 3x06 Secret and Lies
Eliminated - Round 6

18. 3x07 - Escape From Witch Island
Eliminated - Round 5

19. 3x09 - Four to Tango


20. 3x12 - A Weekend In the Country


21. 3x13 - Northern Lights
Eliminated - Round 16

22. 3x14 - Valentine's Day Massacre


23. 3x15 - Crime and Punishment


24. 3x16 - To Green With Love


25. 3x17 - Cinderella Story


26. 3x18 - Neverland


27. 3x19 - Stolen Kisses


28. 3x20 - The Longest Day


29. 3x21 - Show Me Love


30. 3x22 -The Anti-Prom


31. 3x23 - True Love

***BLONDIE***

So tacky of him and such an uncomfortable question to ask anyone. He put her in a awkward position. On one hand, I get that she knew he still had feelings for her and she didn't wanna rub salt in his wounds and confirm something she knew would hurt him. At the same time, she could have just told him it was none of his business and left it at that, instead of lying. I think Pacey would have understood that more, then her lying about it. Lying made it seem like it was something shameful or something she was worried about Dawson finding out about and Pacey had every reason to be upset about that, because she was still allowing Dawson to interfere in their relationship, because she didn't have the guts to tell him off.

clarkson_fan

#8

Yeah, she should have just left it at that, because truly wasn't any of Dawson's business one way or the other, but we gotta have the drama...

But yeah that is exactly what Joey did, made it seem shameful and almost like she didn't want Dawson to know because Dawson is still special in her heart and/or she's "ashamed" that it was Pacey or something. That's how it comes off, anyway. Or can come off.

And it's like, Pacey was very insecure and how he let that insecurity get the better of him sometimes was on him. But Joey...never exactly helped matters all that much sometimes.