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Old 04-03-2019, 06:41 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Butterfly85 (View Post)
25.

Dawson/Joey just never seemed like endgame to me, they NEVER worked out. Their relationship didn't even last longer than a few weeks. I personally think it's dumb to say in the first episode that a certain couple must end up together, cause over the years so many things can change and evolve (writing, character development, chemistry, who's on the cast, etc.) so that couple can change and not fit together anymore, and I feel that was the case with D/J. I don't see a couple as endgame if they can't ever get their crap together, and have the same problems tearing them apart again...and again...and again. I do love how the juggernaut that was Pacey/Joey wasn't planned. I think their Double Date episode showed how much chemistry JJ and KH had, and KW said they were going to explore that later. Plus, usually when two people always banter and "hate" each other, that usually leads to them falling in love lol. I do think the network changed things near the end of S4. Like I've said, the Promicide episode was so rushed, forced, and out of nowhere just to make P/J break up so they can throw Dawson and Joey back together (only to have them once again self destruct in S5, pointless but part of the couple's problem anyway) Joey was DEEPLY in love with Pacey all season and all about him, not wanting to lose him, wanted her future to be with him no matter what that it's bizarre and odd how at the end of S4 she is so determined to spend the summer with Dawson. It was plot driven and nothing more.

I'm so glad Pacey and Joey ended up together, I could NEVER see Joey end up with Dawson. Again, they couldn't even make it work longer than two weeks! So how could they have a real and long term relationship as adults, hell they remained little kids when they were together (you see how immature and dumb their arguments and dilemmas were) They never grew together as a real couple like Pacey and Joey did, never matured together and handled things together as a united front. I love when chemistry changes things for the better. It happened with my favorite couple of all time from All My Children: Noah and Julia. They were planning to put Noah with Taylor instead but saw him and Julia together and went with that instead. Then they became one of AMC's most popular supercouples. Just like Pacey/Joey became DC's supercouple.
That is always the case with the Cannon Couple in TV Shows. TV Makers seem to be obsessed with this notion of homaging the origins. Instead of just having flow in the story. I felt Joey outgrew Dawson through out the series. I Think most people who watched the series just assumed DJ were endgame. So the show was kinda applauded when they made JP endgame. They spent so much time trying to convince the audeince DJ were soulmates, they inadvertantly created this iconic couple. That the audience fell in love with. To the point they coulden't buy DJ anymore.

Funny KW said DJ were true soulmates. In a way they were technically. They were best friends since they were born, and a big part of their lifes. But the problem with fairytale stories. IS Reality can hit hard. Even by Season 6 (I only have a vague memory from watching this show when I was 10 lol). When they matured, their was nothing romantic their. TBH Pacey was a bigger part of her life. Pacey was also not a case in point Homewrecker. He was a main character, and a childhood friend. KW also recently I Think last year in that reunion. Seemed to change his tune on DJ being Soulmates. He said if we saw these characters again. Dawson would be lost for awhile, but eventually find fulfulment as the next Spielberg. Joey and Pacey would of got married, and had kids. But recently divorced, but we would see them fall in love again.

Last edited by 3ku11; 04-03-2019 at 09:22 PM
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Old 04-03-2019, 10:15 PM
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You guys all bring up excellent points. I won't get into it because I'll just basically be repeating what y'all have said. But I will say that I always felt Joey was more invested in hers and Pacey's relationship than she was with Dawson. And like it was mentioned, she fought for their relationship which proves that point.

I think I'll go with #24 as well.
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Old 04-03-2019, 10:43 PM
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ITA 3ku11 (I also love your avatar) I agree that Joey outgrew Dawson, he always stayed immature (I mean, when Pacey lost Dawson's money, Dawson brought up Pacey and Joey getting together when that had nothing to do with the situation) Dawson and Joey seemed more like family, I could never see them as romantic. I also agree, they were a fantasy and reality did hit them. They weren't compatible together as a couple. Look how fast they nose dived when they got together in S2. She instantly kissed another guy and rushed into a relationship after dumping Dawson the first chance she got lol. Joey showed a couple of times that she just didn't want Dawson as much as she thought, definitely not as much as he wanted her (when it was convenient for him) Dawson felt more like Joey's brother to me, while Pacey was the love of her life and gave her that Earth shattering, once in a lifetime love. It was so real it shook them both to their core.

lol It's so weird to hear about Pacey being a homewrecker. That's so ridiculous, that's my first time hearing that. Dawson pushed them together, and they naturally fell for each other. They tried to fight it but couldn't. I did love in S3 when Pacey was falling for Joey but he also felt tortured by it cause he thought they could never be together cause it would cause an apocalypse. He said he's fallen for the worst person he could ever fall for cause it could destroy everything. I loved that they both felt awful for possibly hurting others but they couldn't help how they felt about each other. You can't help who you fall for. Like I said, I just love how REALISTIC they wrote Pacey and Joey in S3 and 4. Their relationship changing cause they got closer and saw a different side to each other was so nice, and again it was courtesy of Dawson lol. Joey was definitely more invested in her relationship, life, and future with Pacey. With Dawson she was happy to throw it away and basically didn't give a damn.
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Old 04-04-2019, 06:46 AM
  #49
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Dawson's Creek is made better by Joey ending up with Pacey because it was always there but it developed in its own time. I love listening to DC podcasts to hear new viewers and if they see that in season 1 or if re-watchers discover it. Just a few things that stick out as better and more meaningful because of how the story went

- Joey's first line to Pacey is 'You did it again, you grabbed my ass'. Why would Pacey be copping a feel of a girl he 'hates'?

- 'The question is, when will your lips ever find Pacey's?'

- Joey's reaction to the sex tape of Pacey. She is all about the guy's 'throbbing neck muscles' when she doesn't realise its Pacey. Pacey explicitly remembers that description. This is why I don't mind the scene of him looking in Double Date, it parallels this one where she looking at him.

- Pacey accidentally phrases the invite to Cliff's party as a date and he has to backtrack and add banter to it

- Joey phrases the pilot theatre trip as a date before Dawson takes it seriously and she jests 'have you had an aneurysm'

- 'Who am I to stand in the way of True Love'- Joey to Pacey Season 1

- Joey gets handsy and flirty with Pacey at Cliff's party and he has to take her hand off him

- Pacey is visibly annoyed when Joey credits Dawson for looking after her when it was him 'My Hero'

- Pacey calls out the banter with Joey as sexual repression and it is.

- The scene in Beauty contest when Jen and Joey are talking about more 'fish in the sea' and it cuts to Pacey talking about Joey and him kissing her. Pacey being the sea creature.

Then the show sort of encourages us to re-evaluate season 1 as the show goes on

- The introduction of Andie. She's a lot like Joey at first, clever, pretty, banters with the best of them. If Andie is the 'Girl I love to hate' well what does that make his Mortal Enemy, Joey Potter?

- Aunt Gwen tells us that the last time she saw Joey and Pacey Pacey was chasing Joey. Spoken like kindergarten flirting, he was pulling her pig tails.

- Pacey in S4, You always tease the ones you love

- Audrey calls Pacey out on being hot for girls he can verbally spar with, something she could really never do.

- Mini-Me Pacey in Season 6 says that he has to keep up with the banter to get mini-me Joey to notice him or she'll be distracted by the unavailability of the other guy. If he keeps up the banter, at least he'll be the funny one. That completely turns our perception of S1 Joey and Pacey on its head.

- The opening scene Joey watches of Dawson's show talks about the lead's subconscious intentions towards Petey (Pacey). Joey was always hot for Pacey but it wasn't conscious. Those things like her getting handsy at the party or sighing over his body on tape are evidence of this. It was always there but she was focused on Dawson.

- Pacey saying he has 'always, always loved' Joey in his off the hook speech. How long was always? well...

- He stole that video from Dawson in Season 1 pre-Double Date because Dawson and Jen are flirting in it. Why? Because he always, always loved Joey.

Its a retcon but its such a good one I think it needs to be called a 'recontextualisation'. Much like how they retconned Dawson always loving Joey when he didn't even notice her until she had some make up on and a pretty dress. I may discuss more that is made better in season 2 later

Last edited by AsgardianJane; 04-04-2019 at 07:04 AM
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Old 04-04-2019, 10:04 AM
  #50
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AsgardianJane,
honestly I never thought of some of those parallels before, and I have thought a lot about PJ parallels. Their story truly did write itself right from the pilot.

I'll go with #25.

#17 -1
#24 -1
#25 - 2
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Old 04-04-2019, 10:06 AM
  #51
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25.
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Old 04-04-2019, 10:12 AM
  #52
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#17 -1
#24 -1
#25 - 3 - Eliminated

_________

Best of Joey Picking on Pacey Survivor



*Vote for your least favorite moment.
*You may vote only once per round.
*The moment will be eliminated when it has three votes or after a couple days.
All graphics are from Pacey and Joey Tumblr and Dawson's Creek Source, Dawsonscreek.tumblr, and/or belong to their respective owners


Round 8

1. 1x03 - Kiss

Pacey: Actually something a little sexy would be good, I gotta a maybe sorta date this evening.
Joey: Hmm, who's the lucky farm animal tonight?
Pacey: Ahh, What's that , what's that that makes a woman horny?
Joey: Your polar opposite?

2. 1x04 - Discovery


3. 1x06 - Baby

Joey: Hey, Jail bait.

4. 1x07 - Detention


5. 1x08 - Boyfriend

PACEY: Ooh Mellisa Fife, one o’clock. Girl of my dreams right there. How do I look?
JOEY: Like the ‘before’ picture in an ad for geek remover.
PACEY: Easy, doll. Jealousy’s not going to get you anywhere.

6. 1x10 - Double Date
Eliminated - Round 4

7. 1x10 - Double Date
Eliminated - Round 6

8. 1x10 - Double Date


9. 1x13 - Decisions
Eliminated - Round 5

10. 3x03 - None of the Above

Pacey: Okay, so tell me honestly: does it look that bad?
Joey: On your face, any reconstructive surgery whatsoever is a definite improvement.

11 3x04 - Home Movies

PACEY: Well, coming from a just-minded soul such as yourself, I’m sure your punishment will be nothing but fair, sir.
JOEY: Well thank you, Eddie Haskell.
PACEY: Where is your school spirit Josephine?
JOEY: I think I left it cowering in the bushes.
PACEY: Now that is a gross misconception. I hurled myself upon the flames of responsibility.
JOEY: I hope a deer tick crawled in your ear and laid eggs.

12. 3x06 - Secrets and Lies


13. 3x09 - Four To Tango


14. 3x15 - Crime and Punishment


15. 4x01 - Coming Home



16. 4x02 - Falling Down

Pacey: So, do they want to see you in the guidance office after school?
Joey: No.
Pacey: No. See, that right there is a bad sign. It means they're singling me out already.
Joey: Aw, don't worry, sweetie. They probably want to extend a hand and let you know that they're there to help you fulfill your destiny as the world's greatest gas station attendant.

17. 4x04 - Future Tense


18. 4x04 - Future Tense
Eliminated - Round 4

19. 4x06 - Great Xpectations
Eliminated - Round 1

20. 4x09 - Kiss kiss bang bang

Pacey: Well, have you thought about hiring an escort? 'Cause from what I'm told you can't take me anywhere.
Joey: I called around, but they're all out of socially-presentable man-meat.
Pacey: Well, what if I just broke up with you, hmm? I mean, what would you do then?
Joey: Look, do what you have to do. You're still coming with me.

21. 4x15 - Four Stories


22. 6x14 - Clean and Sober.
Eliminated - Round 2

23. 6x14 - Clean and Sober

Joey: Lay one on me, Pace.

24. 6x15 - Castaways

Joey: Move it.

25. 6x17 - Sex and Violence
Eliminated - Round 7

26. 6x24 - Must Come to an End



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Old 04-04-2019, 11:43 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristinaL80 (View Post)

AsgardianJane,
honestly I never thought of some of those parallels before, and I have thought a lot about PJ parallels. Their story truly did write itself right from the pilot.

I'll go with #25.

#17 -1
#24 -1
#25 - 2
There is a few I even forgot in Season 1

Joey riling up Dawson in Detention by saying Pacey had the better body. Abbey calling out the sexual tension between the 4 of them. Joey then asking Jen if she'd rather bang someone like 'I don't know...Pacey'. Screams unconscious projection when put together. That episode is also the start of Dawson's paranoia about Pacey. That Pacey will steal his girlfriend and it started because Joey put it in Dawson's head.

Even in season 2 its more difficult but its there.

- Pacey overreacts when he finds out about Dawson and Joey. He frosts his tips and starts chasing Christy. Is he inspired as he says or is he jealous? It seems to come out in Crossroads 'You've got Joey and our friendship just can't compare to what you two have'. He gets better when he starts falling for Andie.

- In The Election when Pacey and Andie are canoodling Joey sits behind them, coughs, and Pacey stops dead in his tracks. This doesn't happen in season 3 where its Joey who gets uncomfortable.

- When they are doing the all nighter Chris mentions there being spare bikinis and Pacey gives Joey quite the look.

- In that same episode one of the purity test questions was 'Have you ever fantasised about a friends' significant other'. The room goes quiet and the camera cuts to Jen, Joey, Pacey, Dawson. Now think about it. It either means Pacey has been fantasising over Jen or Joey and we know from Detention and Season 3 he has no taste for Jen so it must be Joey. The next question is 'Have you ever had an affair with a friend's significant other?' and Pacey grabs the magazine and changes the subject to sex with animals. A joke first raised by Joey in S1. 'Who's the lucky farm animal tonight?'

- The Poem in New Moon Rising is:
By moonlight many years ago my true love did I know, and by that moon I begged her wait but that night did she go. So, young lovers, heed my words, don't squander love away. The moon is changinger ever still, soon comes the light of day.

True Love because of later seasons is now a PJo thing. Everytime we hear it now we associate it with them. So this poem is what snaps Joey out of her obsession with Dawson. While not meaning to at the time, retroactively we can interpret this as Joey realising Dawson was not her True Love.

- Then there is the Last Picture show, which does come back. I am sure this was intentional. Even if all the others aren't. Williamson said that he knew PJo was going to happen by 1x10. In 2x02 he dooms Pandie with the magic 8 ball, Andie drops it so it can't predict the future. Pacey replies 'That can't be a good sign'. So if we believe Williamson knew Andie was temporary, surely the episode before where he frames the characters with The Last Picture Show was intentional? When the movie comes on it cuts to Pacey, then back to Joey and Dawson at the movie before Jen arrives to recreate the pilot.
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Old 04-04-2019, 12:31 PM
  #54
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Great catches Asgardianjane. Some of those I've noticed and some I didn't. Like I've said though, you could tell Joey was attracted to Pacey back in S1 (same for Pacey obviously, but Joey's feelings were more subtle just like in S3) I did always have a problem with Dawson not noticing Joey until she got all dressed up for the beauty pageant. Pacey noticed her as herself and wanted her as she was.

I'll go with 24 this time.
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Old 04-04-2019, 12:52 PM
  #55
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Old 04-04-2019, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AsgardianJane (View Post)
Dawson's Creek is made better by Joey ending up with Pacey because it was always there but it developed in its own time. I love listening to DC podcasts to hear new viewers and if they see that in season 1 or if re-watchers discover it. Just a few things that stick out as better and more meaningful because of how the story went

- Joey's first line to Pacey is 'You did it again, you grabbed my ass'. Why would Pacey be copping a feel of a girl he 'hates'?

- 'The question is, when will your lips ever find Pacey's?'

- Joey's reaction to the sex tape of Pacey. She is all about the guy's 'throbbing neck muscles' when she doesn't realise its Pacey. Pacey explicitly remembers that description. This is why I don't mind the scene of him looking in Double Date, it parallels this one where she looking at him.

- Pacey accidentally phrases the invite to Cliff's party as a date and he has to backtrack and add banter to it

- Joey phrases the pilot theatre trip as a date before Dawson takes it seriously and she jests 'have you had an aneurysm'

- 'Who am I to stand in the way of True Love'- Joey to Pacey Season 1

- Joey gets handsy and flirty with Pacey at Cliff's party and he has to take her hand off him

- Pacey is visibly annoyed when Joey credits Dawson for looking after her when it was him 'My Hero'

- Pacey calls out the banter with Joey as sexual repression and it is.

- The scene in Beauty contest when Jen and Joey are talking about more 'fish in the sea' and it cuts to Pacey talking about Joey and him kissing her. Pacey being the sea creature.

Then the show sort of encourages us to re-evaluate season 1 as the show goes on

- The introduction of Andie. She's a lot like Joey at first, clever, pretty, banters with the best of them. If Andie is the 'Girl I love to hate' well what does that make his Mortal Enemy, Joey Potter?

- Aunt Gwen tells us that the last time she saw Joey and Pacey Pacey was chasing Joey. Spoken like kindergarten flirting, he was pulling her pig tails.

- Pacey in S4, You always tease the ones you love

- Audrey calls Pacey out on being hot for girls he can verbally spar with, something she could really never do.

- Mini-Me Pacey in Season 6 says that he has to keep up with the banter to get mini-me Joey to notice him or she'll be distracted by the unavailability of the other guy. If he keeps up the banter, at least he'll be the funny one. That completely turns our perception of S1 Joey and Pacey on its head.

- The opening scene Joey watches of Dawson's show talks about the lead's subconscious intentions towards Petey (Pacey). Joey was always hot for Pacey but it wasn't conscious. Those things like her getting handsy at the party or sighing over his body on tape are evidence of this. It was always there but she was focused on Dawson.

- Pacey saying he has 'always, always loved' Joey in his off the hook speech. How long was always? well...

- He stole that video from Dawson in Season 1 pre-Double Date because Dawson and Jen are flirting in it. Why? Because he always, always loved Joey.

Its a retcon but its such a good one I think it needs to be called a 'recontextualisation'. Much like how they retconned Dawson always loving Joey when he didn't even notice her until she had some make up on and a pretty dress. I may discuss more that is made better in season 2 later
All of this is so good and so right. And there's also in 1x07 when Joey is all "well you don't like to lose" and Dawson is like "what is that supposed to mean?" and Joey goes "well Pacey has bigger biceps than you" like why would she pay enough attention to Pacey's biceps to know that?

And I also think that's why Andie was just a first love but not "the one" because she was...kind of a lighter version of Joey until they fell in love and they weren't so banter-y anymore and then stuff happened and Pacey realized she wasn't "the one" and also, he says that in 3x06 when, lbr, he's already falling for Joey even though he doesn't realize it yet.

And yeah they definitely retconned DJ ALL the time. After season 1 they would say they loved each other since they were zygotes or whatever but Dawson went so far as to say she was like a sister in season 1. It was a way to make them seem more epic than they were because "oh they've loved each other their whole lives" and like sure there was platonic friend love but that's really all there is when you're kids - or just fairly superficial crushes - so why try to make it some epic love story for the ages or something? A little ridiculous. I mean I think - or is this fic? - canon says Joey didn't realize her feelings until around when he mother was dying/died when she was 12/13 herself, so she didn't love Dawson all this time either.
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Old 04-04-2019, 01:41 PM
  #57
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Another thing I've just noticed. I'm editing a fan video right now so I'm looking for connective bits to make it flow. The whole '10 seconds' thing. Everyone connects Stolen Kisses and A Winter's Tale but its also what he says when he takes Joey to get the True Love sign.

Pacey: Well, ok. Whether or not you're actually interested, you have about 10 seconds to make up your mind after I round that corner. Starting now. One... 2... 3...

[He goes around the corner. Joey, just watches him go, and then follows after him.]

Pacey: 6 seconds?! 6? I mean, come on. Have you no pride? I thought you'd last at least to 8.

Joey: I loathe you.

So that is three Key episodes where they use that device.


Also, Pacey says later the boat is named after Joey. The Unattainable Girl. But this is episode 4 when he gets that sign. He broke up with Andie two episodes ago. So in that time he has sent away for a custom made hand painted sign dedicated to his True Love Joey Potter.

Pandie is sweet but mercy me does that put her in consolation prize territory.
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Old 04-04-2019, 06:17 PM
  #58
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All of this is so good and so right. And there's also in 1x07 when Joey is all "well you don't like to lose" and Dawson is like "what is that supposed to mean?" and Joey goes "well Pacey has bigger biceps than you" like why would she pay enough attention to Pacey's biceps to know that?

And I also think that's why Andie was just a first love but not "the one" because she was...kind of a lighter version of Joey until they fell in love and they weren't so banter-y anymore and then stuff happened and Pacey realized she wasn't "the one" and also, he says that in 3x06 when, lbr, he's already falling for Joey even though he doesn't realize it yet.

And yeah they definitely retconned DJ ALL the time. After season 1 they would say they loved each other since they were zygotes or whatever but Dawson went so far as to say she was like a sister in season 1. It was a way to make them seem more epic than they were because "oh they've loved each other their whole lives" and like sure there was platonic friend love but that's really all there is when you're kids - or just fairly superficial crushes - so why try to make it some epic love story for the ages or something? A little ridiculous. I mean I think - or is this fic? - canon says Joey didn't realize her feelings until around when he mother was dying/died when she was 12/13 herself, so she didn't love Dawson all this time either.
Personally I Think their were clues in 4x02 JP were endgame and not DJ. The way Joey responded to Pacey possibly flunking school. And how Pacey was so threatened by her history with Dawson. How Joey was like "Your right Pacey Dawson would of never been so stupid to not study.". "But you know what he would of never taken such a risk, by heading off for the summer on a whim". Pacey made Joey take more risks. With Dawson he's her solid rock. That is always their. But Pacey offered arguably True Love
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Old 04-04-2019, 07:07 PM
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Another moment that we should consider too is in S2 Psychic Friends, the Fortune Teller tells Joey that there is a handsome, tall, dark man in her future. I know she then meets up with that photographer, but he really wasn't that tall, so I always felt is was more about Pacey than anyone else.


I'll go with #24 this round.
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Old 04-04-2019, 10:21 PM
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I'll prob eliminate #24.
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