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Old 08-19-2005, 06:35 PM
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Episode Discussion #419 - "Late"



As Gale's delivery date approaches, the girls throw a baby shower for her...but it's an experience that throws Joey for a loop when she realizes it's possible that she could be pregnant, and Pacey is nowhere to be found. While Dawson awaits the arrival of his new sibling, Dawson and Gretchen wonder what their future holds when Gretchen considers an out-of-town job... Meanwhile, Jack faces an unexpected situation when he learns that Tobey falls victim to a vicious crime.
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Old 08-19-2005, 06:40 PM
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Old 08-19-2005, 06:41 PM
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Hi everyone! It's your former moderator, and current Administrator, Jerry D! Dawson's Creek and this message board will always have a special place in my heart, because this it where it all started for me. I saw that the Episode Discussion thread for Eastern Standard Time had been topped for quite some time, so I figured it was time to discuss the next Season Four episode.

Here's what I wrote about this episode at the time that it aired:

I absolutely loved this episode, as the characters that we’ve grown to love faced some milestone events in their lives, and both Pacey and Joey, and Dawson and Gretchen, seemed to be quickly approaching a crossroads in their relationship, with one couple, as always, honestly communicating with each other about that relationship, and with the other couple, due to temporary distance between them, and also due to reasons far more complex than simple distance, avoiding honest communication and avoiding the issues between them which could destroy their relationship. We also got to see Dawson, surrounded by all the people he cares about the most, except Pacey and Gretchen, welcome someone who will have a significant impact on his life, as Lillian Leery made her way into the world, to be held in Dawson’s loving arms.

I really enjoyed watching the opening scene at the Leery’s house, and I enjoyed seeing how relaxed that Gretchen and Dawson are with each other. I also enjoyed seeing how excited Dawson and Gretchen were for Mitch and Gale, as the arrival date of their baby, fraught in this episode with many false alarms, came closer and closer. Once again, I was so heartened by Dawson and Gretchen’s complete honesty with one another, as Dawson reacted with mixed feelings upon hearing the news that Gretchen was interviewing for a writing position in Boston, and they both faced the reality that their time together was growing short, as their career ambitions would soon take them on their separate paths in life. I could definitely understand Gretchen’s hesitation to “take the next step” with Dawson, because, like she said, she didn’t want to open herself up like that just to have Dawson leave her as he went off to USC. Finally, though, thanks to some wonderfully touching advice from Joey, who proved that she really is a true friend to Dawson as she told Gretchen not to shut Dawson out of her life, Gretchen opened up her heart to Dawson, as they passionately embraced in the final scene of the episode.

I liked the fact that Jack and Tobey are connecting as friends, and I was so glad that Jack stood up for Tobey and supported him after discovering that Tobey had been the victim of a vicious hate crime, and the scene where Tobey related what had happened to him was heart wrenching.

I loved seeing Jack and Jen together, as always, and Jen provided Jack some astute advice about the need for Jack to take action, and I was glad that Jack followed her advice.

I liked all the scenes involving Dawson and Mitch, and as always, the warm rapport they have with each other as father and son touched my heart. Mitch’s advice to Dawson about following your own path, because in this life, you never know, was very true, and his words about a father’s love were very heartwarming.

As always, I had very mixed feelings about Joey in this episode, as she exhibited both her best behavior, and her worst behavior, all in one episode, as she faced the possibility that she might be pregnant, and she initially acted in a completely self absorbed manner, and she was unbelievably harsh and condescendingly judgmental towards Bessie and the life she had led, after all that Bessie had done for her, and I was glad that Bessie stood up to her and said that Joey was no better than her or their mother, and at least she had someone in her life who knows how to take care of herself, let alone a family. Just like in “Admissions,” I was disappointed that Joey couldn’t get over focusing on only herself for even one hour, as everyone shared the joy of Gale’s impending birth with a “baby naming party,” but on the other hand, an unplanned pregnancy, especially at that stage of Joey’s life, as she stood on the threshold of her future, would be devastating, so in that regard, I could completely understand her fear and apprehension. Later, though, in typical Joey Potter fashion, her basic good nature came through, and she showed genuine remorse for her earlier harsh remarks, as she apologized to Bessie and showed her the respect and admiration that Bessie so richly deserved, and she proved herself to be a wonderfully supportive friend to both Dawson and Gretchen. I was glad to see Joey finally recognize just how selfish she was being, and her later words of advice to both Dawson and Gretchen about their relationship were the actions of a true and concerned friend, especially when Joey told Gretchen that Dawson would “Lasso The Moon” for her, and that Gretchen shouldn’t shut Dawson out of her life just because he was leaving. I truly felt, however, that Joey’s advice to Dawson about the significance of having sex, and that sex wasn’t what she thought it was going to be, and her statement that Dawson and Gretchen are a lot closer than people who are having sex, seemed to toll the death knell for her relationship with Pacey, which was further confirmed to me later in the episode in Joey and Pacey’s telephone conversation, as we watched her face drop as he lied to her about where he was, and she knew he was lying, and she lied to him about why she wanted him to contact her. To me, the juxtaposition of the basic honesty between Dawson and Gretchen, and the lack of honesty between Pacey and Joey, which has been emphasized in the last several episodes, was quite telling tonight, and judging from the preview that we saw, will soon come to a head between both couples.

I was so happy that everyone that Dawson cared about were there for him to welcome the arrival of his new baby sister, but I was disappointed that Pacey and Gretchen, who’ve both played such a large role in Dawson’s life, weren’t there at that moment. I also thought that it was sweet and poignant that Mitch and Gale named their baby Lillian after Bessie and Joey’s mother, and you could tell how moved both Joey and Bessie were by that touching gesture.

Overall, I really enjoyed this episode, and I look forward to the rest of the season with great anticipation.
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Old 08-19-2005, 08:24 PM
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I always liked this episode alot. The whole Gale having a Baby was cute in this episode with the shower and I loved the Mitch/Dawson scene. I loved they named her Lilly and I love the scene when Dawson's holding the baby with Joey because it was as if the show at the time was trying to foreshadow something. The Joey pregnancy scare is a pretty topical thing that shows do so I was not surprised Creek did it as well.

I was so upset Tobey was beat up it broke my heart. I am glad he had Jack to support him. Season 4 really did end with some good ones.
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Old 08-20-2005, 09:31 AM
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Joey was a big baby throughout the entire episode. She was supposed to be 18 years old and acted like a big baby.
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Old 08-22-2005, 08:37 AM
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I cant see how anyone enjoyed this episode for the simple fact that Joey Potter needed a spanking, I dont even see how some Mommy Joey and Daddy Dawson foreshadowing could have swept away the annoyance of Miss Joey Potter in this episode, I wanted to strangle her.

Thinking you may be pregnant is a really scary thing, Im sure, but ruining everyone else's day including the baby shower of someone whom IS having a baby, by sulking around in your own unfounded sorrow was so beyond selfish and Joey's done some really selfish things. I dont see why Joey never seems to do what any normal person would do in these situations. She cant afford an Ivy League college, who can?! but she cries and cries until someone GIVES her money for school instead of taking out a student loan or applying for financial aid like any other college student in the universe. Then she thinks she may be pregnant and she mopes and mopes until she finally takes a pregnancy test and alas, it's negative. WHy not do that in the first place like any other sane human wouldve done, or even wait a couple days until it arrived since everyone knows a womans period can can fluctuate and comes a couple days earlier or later. That in itself banned this episode to the depths of annoyance for me. Not to mention the fact that it's just another message for a woman that sex is BAD BAD BAD and that you'll get pregnanct and then miscarry but that men can enjoy it seamlessly.

Then there was the fact that I have no interest whatsoever in an episode basically revolving around the Leery's anyway, they're always a big yawn, a little too much in the perfection department, I've always been keen on drama and a wee bit of dysfunctionality in my teen soaps. But the photo above of James and John was a bright spot (that cigar! Sooo funny....and a little dirty.)

Other than that I cant even remember anything else about this episode. Tobey never, ever interested me especially since he never seemed to interest Jack either (mostly Kerr's fault I'd say). This is the beginning of the most depressing Pacey we ever see (and not in that hot brooding late season 3 way) and Jen...was there Jen in there?
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Old 08-22-2005, 01:52 PM
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At this point in the series and especially in season 4 I was pretty used to being annoyed by Joey. It did not even really shock me the way she acted in this episode based on her past actions.
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Old 08-22-2005, 05:26 PM
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I loved that Gretchen's baby name suggestion was Kurt, after Kurt Cobain. Nirvana!
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Old 08-23-2005, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugz
I cant see how anyone enjoyed this episode for the simple fact that Joey Potter needed a spanking, I dont even see how some Mommy Joey and Daddy Dawson foreshadowing could have swept away the annoyance of Miss Joey Potter in this episode, I wanted to strangle her.

Thinking you may be pregnant is a really scary thing, Im sure, but ruining everyone else's day including the baby shower of someone whom IS having a baby, by sulking around in your own unfounded sorrow was so beyond selfish and Joey's done some really selfish things. I dont see why Joey never seems to do what any normal person would do in these situations. She cant afford an Ivy League college, who can?! but she cries and cries until someone GIVES her money for school instead of taking out a student loan or applying for financial aid like any other college student in the universe. Then she thinks she may be pregnant and she mopes and mopes until she finally takes a pregnancy test and alas, it's negative. WHy not do that in the first place like any other sane human wouldve done, or even wait a couple days until it arrived since everyone knows a womans period can can fluctuate and comes a couple days earlier or later. That in itself banned this episode to the depths of annoyance for me. Not to mention the fact that it's just another message for a woman that sex is BAD BAD BAD and that you'll get pregnanct and then miscarry but that men can enjoy it seamlessly.
I actually agree with you. Joey annoyed me a lot here. Yes ,I enjoyed the Leery's fairy tale and even the D/J's speech or their moment with the little Lilian ,but Joey was a pain in the ass from the beginning until the end.
I just wanted to slap her face more than once during the episode.
The way she didn't care about Pacey's problems,her not really polite answers to Gretchen and Bessy,the way she pouted throughout the whole Gale's party...A baby. It didn't surprise me though. Joey was like that throughout the whole season.
I enjoyed the Leery's storyline. It was simple,nice and calm. Someone could say even boring, but not to me. I wanted something relaxing and happy at the time. I was extremely bored by The Pacey and Joey's drama. This was a fresh breath.
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Old 08-23-2005, 07:06 AM
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Interesting, I'd think people would be more than enthralled with Pacey and Joeys drama given the fac tthat it was blatantly signifying their end which I remembr certain fans counting the days until. That said their end was done so horribly that I suppose it couldve been considered contrived or eye rolling, but boring, Ive never heard.

In fact, I used to like the end of season 4 but the more I go through the episodes the more I think it was so forced and contrived and arced out horribly, this episode included.

I also dont think that Joey tws nearly as bad all season as she was in this episode, this episode was the worst to me. She had shown signs of selfishness all season but there were also a lot of times where she was there for other people, Pacey especially. This episode was just appalling to me though.
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Old 08-23-2005, 08:18 AM
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Interesting, I'd think people would be more than enthralled with Pacey and Joeys drama given the fac tthat it was blatantly signifying their end which I remembr certain fans counting the days until. That said their end was done so horribly that I suppose it couldve been considered contrived or eye rolling, but boring, Ive never heard.

In fact, I used to like the end of season 4 but the more I go through the episodes the more I think it was so forced and contrived and arced out horribly, this episode included.

I also dont think that Joey tws nearly as bad all season as she was in this episode, this episode was the worst to me. She had shown signs of selfishness all season but there were also a lot of times where she was there for other people, Pacey especially. This episode was just appalling to me though.
Well to me Joey's decline began in season 2 and just increased every season more,until it reached a point (season 6) in which she was almost unbereable to watch to me. I didn't like her very much in season 4. Especially after the first half of the season...but then again I agree that this one was one of the worst episode for her character.
I found her pretty annoying more than once during season 4 and with her, her relationship with Pacey. That was what I was referring to before when I said DRAMA.
I think that the drama,the angst or whatever you wanna call it, for this couple began very soon. It annoyed me how every episode was about them fighting over the same things and making puppy eyes at each other at the very end.
It also bothered me a lot the way Pacey's character was handled while he was with Joey. Always so so insecure and at times even possessive...It was a bit out of character and also annoying to watch,at least for me.At the end of the season I really was bored by them...maybe "bored" isn't even the right word...I'd say "annoyed". Once is intersting,twice is fine, three times it's ok, four times "I can stand it" but after the fifth ..Kill me now! The wirters were recycling the same problems (Dawson,college,different personalities etc.) over and over again with Pacey and Joey throughout the whole season 4. Everytime it seemed like they had resolved something but in the following episode you were all "Here we go again,and again and again...".
I agree that the final episodes of the P/J drama were interesting to watch ( most of all because Pacey and Joey 's process of breaking up was followed by the Dawson and Gretchen's one and by Dawson and Joey getting closer. So it all was keeping the fans tuned to see what was going to happen:will pacey and joey get back together? Will they break up for good? Will something happen btw Dawson and Joey? etc.) but after an entire year of watching these two fighting over the same things again and again allow me to feel a little annoyed by it all.
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Old 08-23-2005, 08:13 PM
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I agree that Joey and Pacey werent handled all that well in season 4 but I do think it's still better than not being able to handle your problems at all and just breaking up a la Dawson and Joey. The episodes definitely got worse and worse as season 4 went on and in the end it was obvious Joey and Pacey werent right in the timing department, but actually watching it all go down was so grating, this episode was the eptiome of it all I feel.
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Old 08-24-2005, 07:35 AM
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dont see why Joey never seems to do what any normal person would do in these situations. She cant afford an Ivy League college, who can?! but she cries and cries until someone GIVES her money for school instead of taking out a student loan or applying for financial aid like any other college student in the universe. Then she thinks she may be pregnant and she mopes and mopes until she finally takes a pregnancy test and alas, it's negative. WHy not do that in the first place like any other sane human wouldve done, or even wait a couple days until it arrived since everyone knows a womans period can can fluctuate and comes a couple days earlier or later. That in itself banned this episode to the depths of annoyance for me.
Thank you Sugz! Joey is one of the most dumbest characters out there. She cries about everything until somebody does something for her. I could understand if Joey was afraid that she may be pregnant and Pacey might leave her, but what person doesn't take a pregnancy test to prove to HERSELF not anybody else that she isn't or is pregnant? IMO, Joey doesn't want anybody happy but her. ( Case in point Admission.) Dawson gets accepted to the college of his choice AFTER being rejected by one but when Dawson says, "I got in", she leaves the table not even saying "Congratulations" to Dawson. She is so selfish it isn't even funny.
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Old 08-24-2005, 09:49 AM
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Joey was really selfish in this episode... of course the scare of being pregnant can make you nervous, but come on... ruining Gale's baby shower and being mean to Gretchen and Bessie didn't help to ease the anxiety.
Gotta say I loved the end and not because of foreshadowing something, but just for the simple fact that Dawson and Joey were sharing another important moment of their lives together. They were together in the death of Joey's mom, in Alex's birth and another moments. Lily's birth was another great one.
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Old 08-25-2005, 07:32 PM
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Joey Potter was one of the most completely self absorbed characters that I've ever seen on a television show, and her selfish "it's all about me" behavior in so many situations was appalling, but I think by that point I was so accustomed to her acting selfishly that it didn't bother me all that much. To me, her behavior at Mitch and Gale's wedding was much worse than her behavior in this episode, but Joey always thought of herself first before she'd actually think of anyone else, and yet we all used to fight tooth and nail over who she'd end up with. Go figure.
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