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Old 07-26-2005, 09:46 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lor-baby
I do keep in mind that PJ stayed together for 20 episodes or more including season 3. That's why treating them that way in season 5,like nothing had happened,like Joey had only had Dawson on her mind for the whole summer ,even if she had just been dumped by her one year-boyfriend Pacey, seemed like a way to say:"Yep Pacey's fears in season4 about Joey always choosing Dawson in the end were totally justified".
If I look at the whole show I can't help but think that that the DJ relationship always came first. Even if PJ stayed together for almost an year their main problem from the very beginning 'till the end was Dawson and Pacey's ensecurities toward him. I mean, how it comes that Joey couldn't completely take Dawson out of her mind 2 seasons after the break up and could,otherwise,get Pacey out of it after few weeks? If you look at season 5, keeping in mind the 4 past seasons, you really begin to think that after all Joey's love for Dawson was the strongest one because she could never get him out of her head.

You're completely ignoring the original point though. The point was the the only way to get back on to the D/J track was to treat Pacey and Joey like they never happened. I doubt that if they'd had Joey still thinking about Pacey or showed any signs from either Pacey or Joey that they werent over each other it wouldve been a LOT more difficult to get Dawson and Joey back in the minds of viewers, ignoring Pacey and Joey was the ONLY way. You keep ducking in and out of the writers viewpoints and the characters viewpoints which is making this confusing. From a writers viewpoint ignoring Pacey and Joeys past was the only way to get Joey and Dawson back on track romantically, just look at Coda, they had to ship Gretchen and Pacey off into exile to get Joey and Dawson alone in that bedroom and make it at least semi realistic. In order to make DJ work they had to literally stop in its tracks other storylines going on. There's something wrong with that.

But even if we did take your points into consideration and we did look at the fact that it did seem as if Joey had forgotten about her relationship with Pacey, I still dont see how it can be argued that Dawson was always the one she loved the most. They NEVER got together! Isnt there something fundamentally wrong there when you supposedly cant get someone else out of your mind but you cant actually ever bring yourself to BE with that person? It's so odd to me, I dont understand it nor do I see how anyone could root for it. To me the only reasonable explanation is that Joey and Dawson really did themselves in when they were younger, they developed this clingy bond so that when they grew up they just couldnt.let.go. when it was time to live their own lives. Pure and simple codependency. What other explanation is there for a pair that couldve easily just gotten together countless times but didnt? I fail to see the romance. Ive been in love and currently am and if you've ever been in love you know that not being with that person is not an option, there's no stalling involved, you want to be with them no matter what. I saw that in Joey at the end of season 3. How come this was never the case with Dawson and Joey? How come they let anything they could get in the way?




Quote:
With Pacey"she didn't feel it",with Dawson "was a huge mistake".
But while I took the huge mistake's line as a sort of rebound for Joey toward Dawson (she had just been hurt by him and wanted to make him feel her pain),I felt like she was completely honest with Pacey. Like she really did wanted Eddie in that moment and had hung out with him because she was feeling lonely and it was nice to relive the old memories.

I dont see how you can justify one and take the other as pure truth. She told Dawson that sleeping with him was a huge mistake and how in the world could you doubt that, she'd just found out that he was having sex with another women at the same time. I'd call that a HUGE mistake! I think Joey's assessment of it was right on and I do believe that she believed it since she never made her way back to him again. Along the same line, I think what she said to Pacey at the time was true as well, she just didnt feel it for him at that moment and she wanted to explore things more with Eddie, that's fine, fortunately for Pacey, that feeling didnt last.


Quote:
At first Joey was confused and had to find herself,then she was confused by her difficult family's situation,then it was Dawson who wasn't ready because he didn't want to be hurt again,then she fell for Pacey,then they decided to keep things slow to not rush into anything like had happened before,then Dawson's father death kept in the way. Dawson was devasted and confused so pushed Joey away.
It was always because they were too young and had to find who they really were,or because of an external event or because of the fear of being hurt etc.

But I totally disagree that these things were external! External is when you're torn apart because one of you is going to college and the other isnt and you feel lik eyou're headed in different directions a la Pacey and Joey (which were feelings they actually fought through and stayed together through!) What's not external is feeling like you have to find yourself, or feeling vulnerble or losing a loved one and pushing others away. Like I said before, if you really love and want someone, these things dont exist. Dawson and Joey just constantly made excuses to not be together, it's what I never understood about them. These were not bad timing situation, there were things that probabaly shouldve brought them together, like Mitch's death, but didnt.

Lastly, I agree that DJ and PJ cant be compared because they have different bonds but I dont think one is better than another. DJ have a platonic bond from childhood, PJ retain that romantic bond.
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Old 07-26-2005, 10:44 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Sugz
You're completely ignoring the original point though. The point was the the only way to get back on to the D/J track was to treat Pacey and Joey like they never happened. I doubt that if they'd had Joey still thinking about Pacey or showed any signs from either Pacey or Joey that they werent over each other it wouldve been a LOT more difficult to get Dawson and Joey back in the minds of viewers, ignoring Pacey and Joey was the ONLY way. You keep ducking in and out of the writers viewpoints and the characters viewpoints which is making this confusing. From a writers viewpoint ignoring Pacey and Joeys past was the only way to get Joey and Dawson back on track romantically, just look at Coda, they had to ship Gretchen and Pacey off into exile to get Joey and Dawson alone in that bedroom and make it at least semi realistic. In order to make DJ work they had to literally stop in its tracks other storylines going on. There's something wrong with that.
I'm not missing the point. I'm just trying to make you understand how the whole situation can appear from a viewer's POV. A viewer who has never been on internet and doesn't know anything about writer's intentions etc.
I was just trying to focus on the story and not on the writers.Dawson was always in the way from the beginning when it comes to Joey and letting Joey forget about Pacey was a way to dismiss her relationship with him and giving credit to the one she had with Dawson.
But I can agree with you that if Joey hadn't gotten over Pacey so easly could've been more difficult to put Dawson and Joey back together again. And at the same time it would've been very difficult to let Pacey and Joey fall in love without taking Andie under a destructive path or without making Dawson seem the evil guy of the situation; or make Pacey and Joey get beck together so easly if they hadn't been closed up into a Supermarket.
Writers didn't just do it with DJ but also with PJ plenty of times,or with DJen etc.
Nothing new.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugz
But even if we did take your points into consideration and we did look at the fact that it did seem as if Joey had forgotten about her relationship with Pacey, I still dont see how it can be argued that Dawson was always the one she loved the most. They NEVER got together! Isnt there something fundamentally wrong there when you supposedly cant get someone else out of your mind but you cant actually ever bring yourself to BE with that person? It's so odd to me, I dont understand it nor do I see how anyone could root for it. To me the only reasonable explanation is that Joey and Dawson really did themselves in when they were younger, they developed this clingy bond so that when they grew up they just couldnt.let.go. when it was time to live their own lives. Pure and simple codependency. What other explanation is there for a pair that couldve easily just gotten together countless times but didnt? I fail to see the romance. Ive been in love and currently am and if you've ever been in love you know that not being with that person is not an option, there's no stalling involved, you want to be with them no matter what. I saw that in Joey at the end of season 3. How come this was never the case with Dawson and Joey? How come they let anything they could get in the way?
I think you're not keeping my points into consideration at all. You're just focusing on the "they never got together " part without giving importance to the other complicated aspects of their relationship due to their age and the fact that they had grown in symbiosis for the longest time. It would be easy to agree with your concept about love. It applies in general to every situations but you have to keep in mind other things: like the age and the way the relationship has born or what is the characters' nature etc.
I would be with you if they were older ,but at 16 years old with the kind of relationship they've always had I can justify their fears and their situation.I can see why it was so difficutl to saty together.
Anyway I just don't want to repeat myself over and over again. I'd be a broken record.
Let's just agree that we disagree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugz
I dont see how you can justify one and take the other as pure truth. She told Dawson that sleeping with him was a huge mistake and how in the world could you doubt that, she'd just found out that he was having sex with another women at the same time. I'd call that a HUGE mistake! I think Joey's assessment of it was right on and I do believe that she believed it since she never made her way back to him again. Along the same line, I think what she said to Pacey at the time was true as well, she just didnt feel it for him at that moment and she wanted to explore things more with Eddie, that's fine, fortunately for Pacey, that feeling didnt last.
That's just my opinion. The impression that I got.
Joey had been royally hurt by Dawson and what he had done with Natasha.
So she said "It was just two old friends making a hude mistake".
I don't think that the night spent with Dawson meant nothing to her since just few hours ago she was gloating and smiling.
I'm sure she felt betrayed or that Dawson had made a huge mistake,but not that their night together was a mistake.
She was way too happy before and way too hurt when it ended.
Otherwise I saw her pretty honest with Pacey. She didn't seem to enjoy hurting him. While she was mad at Dawson and so she could've said things that she didn't really mean to say.
But again this is my opinion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugz
But I totally disagree that these things were external! External is when you're torn apart because one of you is going to college and the other isnt and you feel lik eyou're headed in different directions a la Pacey and Joey (which were feelings they actually fought through and stayed together through!) What's not external is feeling like you have to find yourself, or feeling vulnerble or losing a loved one and pushing others away. Like I said before, if you really love and want someone, these things dont exist. Dawson and Joey just constantly made excuses to not be together, it's what I never understood about them. These were not bad timing situation, there were things that probabaly shouldve brought them together, like Mitch's death, but didnt.
But I didn't say that they were torn apart by external forces ,I said that the most of the times it was their fault and that external events just played their roles.
Here's what I said:
I don't think anyhow that there were OUTSIDE FORCES that kept them apart. I mean,yes the external events (like Joey's dad put in prison or Mitch's death) played a role in the game ,but it was also and mostly their fault:when one was ready the other one wasn't or was simply scared by the possibilty of being hurt or not growing up.
Fears,bad timing and young age aren't OUTSIDE FORCES are very linked to who we are as persons to a certain point of our life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugz
Lastly, I agree that DJ and PJ cant be compared because they have different bonds but I dont think one is better than another. DJ have a platonic bond from childhood, PJ retain that romantic bond.
Absolutely. I didn't iwant to imply that the PJ bond was worse.
I just prefered DJ as a couple,but if it matters something I always adored the PJ's friendship and banter.
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Old 07-26-2005, 11:58 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Lor-baby
But I can agree with you that if Joey hadn't gotten over Pacey so easly could've been more difficult to put Dawson and Joey back together again. And at the same time it would've been very difficult to let Pacey and Joey fall in love without taking Andie under a destructive path or without making Dawson seem the evil guy of the situation; or make Pacey and Joey get beck together so easly if they hadn't been closed up into a Supermarket.
Writers didn't just do it with DJ but also with PJ plenty of times,or with DJen etc.
Nothing new.
I dont think the situation is the same. In season 3 Andie and Dawson were VERY MUCH involved in Pacey and Joey getting together. In fact, they stopped it for a while! That's far and away different than literally sticking Pacey on a boat in the Caribbean with a cell phone and sending Gretchen away. Most of Coda we saw Dawson and Joey getting comfortable and the entire group was together, Jack, Jen, Dawson and Joey. Do you think that Dawson and Joey couldve done any of that if Pacey wouldve been there in any capacity? No, they had to remove him completely in order to make Dawson and Joey remotely possible in Coda. Thats a LOT different than season 3 when Andie and Dawson were very much involved in Pacey and Joeys relationship. Im not talking about storylines here, Im talking about the complete removal or stiflingof one character or storyline to facvilitate another and Dawson and Joey's storyline did that a lot, it just doenst seem natural.


Quote:
I think you're not keeping my points into consideration at all. You're just focusing on the "they never got together " part without giving importance to the other complicated aspects of their relationship due to their age and the fact that they had grown in symbiosis for the longest time. It would be easy to agree with your concept about love. It applies in general to every situations but you have to keep in mind other things: like the age and the way the relationship has born or what is the characters' nature etc.
So did Joey grow up instantaneously at the age of 16 when she started a relationship with Pacey that lasted almost an entire season? I think she was just 16/17 years old, right? Isnt that just a year or less removed from when she couldnt make it work out with Dawson? Plus wouldnt knowing someone and growing with them lend to a better relationship? Why would you not be able to carry on one with someone you grew up with and knew and loved? That's my point right there. In my eyes this show has shown time and time again that Dawson and Joey just werent meant to be together romantically, and thats whether it was intentional or not, and you're sort of going along with my point in saying that maybe this is because they had grown in symbiosis for so long. I always felt like Dawson and Joey always felt like they should have had a romance just because they were so close when they were younger and it took them a really long time to realize that it just wasnt meant to be, which is what they realized in the end.



Quote:
I'm sure she felt betrayed or that Dawson had made a huge mistake,but not that their night together was a mistake.
She was way too happy before and way too hurt when it ended.
Otherwise I saw her pretty honest with Pacey. She didn't seem to enjoy hurting him. While she was mad at Dawson and so she could've said things that she didn't really mean to say.
But again this is my opinion.
I would agree with this, but I feel like if she only said that out of hurt she wouldve returned to him romantically, and she never did in seasno 6, what happened with Dawson and Natasha really was the final nail in the coffin for Joey and she stuck to that so the things she said had to have held some meaning.
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Old 07-26-2005, 01:16 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Sugz
I dont think the situation is the same. In season 3 Andie and Dawson were VERY MUCH involved in Pacey and Joey getting together. In fact, they stopped it for a while! That's far and away different than literally sticking Pacey on a boat in the Caribbean with a cell phone and sending Gretchen away. Most of Coda we saw Dawson and Joey getting comfortable and the entire group was together, Jack, Jen, Dawson and Joey. Do you think that Dawson and Joey couldve done any of that if Pacey wouldve been there in any capacity? No, they had to remove him completely in order to make Dawson and Joey remotely possible in Coda. Thats a LOT different than season 3 when Andie and Dawson were very much involved in Pacey and Joeys relationship. Im not talking about storylines here, Im talking about the complete removal or stiflingof one character or storyline to facvilitate another and Dawson and Joey's storyline did that a lot, it just doenst seem natural.
Well,if you're talking about characters' removal I'm with you.
The writers didn't really remove Andie and Dawson. But I do think that the end of the Pacey/Andie relationship was weird and a bit forced. Possible but not so much credible. Stupin was the first one who said that they had ruined Andie making her doing weird things that weren't completely in her character and that she never recovered from that.
So I think we can say that they made weird scenarios on purpose to keep Joey and Pacey together also or to make the audience accept them better.Like picturing Dawson as the evil guy .And what about "Castaways"? Wasn't it weird for two people who seemed totally fine with the end of their story (at least Joey for the most of the time) to be magically stuck into a market and hooking up again like nothing had happened?
Wasn't it weird the way they put Dawson and Jen back together in season 5?
I'm with you that the Pacey and Gretchen's removal was done to put Dawson and Joey back together,but as much as it weird it was possible as all the other things happened. Pacey had been ensecure about himself and his relationship with Joey for a while,to be honest from the beginning. So wasn't it possible to make him breaking up with Joey and sail the way to find himself for a while?
And for Gretchen...we always knew that she would've come back to Boston or wherever so it wasn't so unexpected. Plus Gretchen was always pretty aware of Dawson's feelings for Joey and Joey's confused emotional state.
We also got many hints during the season that Dawson was still hoping for a reuinion with Joey and that Joey wasn't totally comfortabe with him and Gretchen or with the way things had gone btw her and Dawson.So was Coda really so impossible?





Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugz
So did Joey grow up instantaneously at the age of 16 when she started a relationship with Pacey that lasted almost an entire season? I think she was just 16/17 years old, right? Isnt that just a year or less removed from when she couldnt make it work out with Dawson? Plus wouldnt knowing someone and growing with them lend to a better relationship? Why would you not be able to carry on one with someone you grew up with and knew and loved? That's my point right there. In my eyes this show has shown time and time again that Dawson and Joey just werent meant to be together romantically, and thats whether it was intentional or not, and you're sort of going along with my point in saying that maybe this is because they had grown in symbiosis for so long. I always felt like Dawson and Joey always felt like they should have had a romance just because they were so close when they were younger and it took them a really long time to realize that it just wasnt meant to be, which is what they realized in the end.
No she didn't. In fact I think she was pretty immature in handling her relationship with Pacey also.
But as I tried to explain before the Pacey and Joey bond was different from the beginning.
They weren't so close as DJ always were and didn't have the "I don't know where you begin and I end" kind of relationship. So everything was new and easier.
Plus Joey hadn't to deal with her fear of not growing up since Pacey wasn't so linked to her and her past as Dawson was.
This is the point to me.
Joey couldn't deal with Dawson because she couldn't understand who she really was and their romance was too overwhelming ot be handled in that situation and at that age.
Anyhow I'm with you that after the end we're all supposed to see things like DJ bond was just tied to their childhood and platonic.
But do I think that it was how they wanted to picture it all along? Not at all.




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Originally Posted by Sugz
I would agree with this, but I feel like if she only said that out of hurt she wouldve returned to him romantically, and she never did in seasno 6, what happened with Dawson and Natasha really was the final nail in the coffin for Joey and she stuck to that so the things she said had to have held some meaning.
Well it didn't happen for the same old reason: the audience.
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Old 07-26-2005, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Sugz
You're completely ignoring the original point though. The point was the the only way to get back on to the D/J track was to treat Pacey and Joey like they never happened.
Did they really get D/J back on track? the answer is a big fat no.
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Old 07-27-2005, 08:01 AM
  #51
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Well,if you're talking about characters' removal I'm with you.
The writers didn't really remove Andie and Dawson. But I do think that the end of the Pacey/Andie relationship was weird and a bit forced. Possible but not so much credible. Stupin was the first one who said that they had ruined Andie making her doing weird things that weren't completely in her character and that she never recovered from that.
So I think we can say that they made weird scenarios on purpose to keep Joey and Pacey together also or to make the audience accept them better.Like picturing Dawson as the evil guy .And what about "Castaways"? Wasn't it weird for two people who seemed totally fine with the end of their story (at least Joey for the most of the time) to be magically stuck into a market and hooking up again like nothing had happened?

I agree that in season 2 Andie wouldve never done the things she'd done in season 3 but then again what happened to her between seasons 2 and 3? She went into a mental institution! If thats not grounds for a change in personality I dont know what is. And I dont even really intend on getting into evil Dawson in season 3, what he did was over the top at times but there's no doubt in my mind that in earlier seasons he showed glimmers of his personality in season 3 and he certainly had it in him to throw temper tantrums and get jealous. Ive always felt that way and in no way do I think they completely altered Dawsons personlity to make him the bad guy, they shed him in a bad light, but I do think Dawson had it in him to do the things he did. Just look at season 1, 2, even early season 3 when he got physically and verbally abusvie to Pacey.

Meanwhile, regarding Castaways, obviously the writers wanted to go down the Pacey and Joey route again, you cant blame them for that aftert going down the DJ road countless times, so they wanted to give Pacey and Joey another go. Why is it so hard to believe that two people can get stuck in a situation together that makes them really notice one another again? Especially after you were in love with that person once upon a time? Sure, Castaways was contrived, they were trapped in a KMart for heavens sake, but its a teenage drama! It's not as if they were just going to hang out on the couch watching TV and realize they were in love again. YOu have to keep in mind the fact that this is a television show, they're going to create some drama to facilitate things, it has to be exciting. I think thats a lot different from completely removing a character from an episode in order to facilitate a storyline, like I said, there's something wrong with that storyline in that case.



Quote:
Pacey had been ensecure about himself and his relationship with Joey for a while,to be honest from the beginning. So wasn't it possible to make him breaking up with Joey and sail the way to find himself for a while?
No not at all, but couldnt he have done it over the summer? Did he have to be removed completely, aside from one scene with Dawson of all people, from the last episode of what couldve been the last season (at that point there was s writers strike on the table that couldve shut down DC for good) in order to facilitate a DJ slanted episode? No, he didnt. If they wanted to slant the finale towards Dawson and Joey, fine, make it subtle! But the way they did it made it seem so unreal and forced. For heavens sake, JEN was fluffing DJ! There's no way Pacey couldve been even remotely within the realm of Capeside fror any of that to happen.


Quote:
We also got many hints during the season that Dawson was still hoping for a reuinion with Joey and that Joey wasn't totally comfortabe with him and Gretchen or with the way things had gone btw her and Dawson.So was Coda really so impossible?
To me, absolutely. Not the idea they were going for in itself. Having Dawson and Joey kiss inthe finale wouldve been fine. But look at the episode as a whole, it was so silly. They sat in Dawsons room and packed and talked about their past. Not only is that a huge snore of a finale but it was so over the top. Joeys most memorable moment was kissing Dawson? Come on! What about when your nephew was born or when your mom died or hey, remember when your dad went to prison or when you got into Worthington? They couldve incorporated other stories into it. Maybe had Pacey leave in that episode or giving Jack and Jen something to work with other than making pushing Dawson and Joey together. Season 4 was not the best season for Dawson and Joey, regardless of what little sparks of jealousy we may have seen they BARELY had a friendship and suddenly inthe last episode they're right back to being best buds? So forced. I think Tom just really overdid himself in Coda and it carried on to season 5 and lo and behold, none of it worked out. But this is just my opinion. Im sure as a Dawson and Joey fan you loved every second of it. But from the viewpoint of a non DJ fan or evern a casual fan, that was probably the most hysterically forced/boring finale there ever was.





Quote:
They weren't so close as DJ always were and didn't have the "I don't know where you begin and I end" kind of relationship. So everything was new and easier.
Plus Joey hadn't to deal with her fear of not growing up since Pacey wasn't so linked to her and her past as Dawson was.
This is the point to me.
Joey couldn't deal with Dawson because she couldn't understand who she really was and their romance was too overwhelming ot be handled in that situation and at that age.
I cant comperhend this, it seems like the biggest copout excuse in the world to me. They couldnt be together because they didnt know where one began and the other ended?! Joey didnt know who she really was? What does that even mean. THe girl is 16 years old, relationships are not that complicated at that age. You hold hands and see movies, you don thave to differentiate each others SOULS. its really not that difficult and if it IS that difficult, maybe you shouldnt be doing it!

Meanwhile I think you really overestimate Dawson and Joey. Yes, in the first maybe 2 seasons Joey and Dawson were pretty much bound together. They were together always they knew each other very well but in late season 2 and from season 3 on, this was NOT the case. THere are even a few instances where Dawson admitted he didnt really know Joey anymore and that fact was obvious in later seasons when they went long stretches without even talking. I know that season 1 was probably the best season for Dawson and Joey, when they were friends, but dont drag that dynamic they had into later seasons because it wasnt there anymore, they were hardly friends at some points and certainly didnt really know each other anymore.




Quote:
COOLCAT:Did they really get D/J back on track? the answer is a big fat no.
Well I didnt say get DJ back on track. I said "get back on the DJ track", it's different. To even go the way of Dawson an dJoey again they had to pretty much cut out a season and a half of the show.
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Old 07-27-2005, 10:29 AM
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[QUOTE=Sugz
Well I didnt say get DJ back on track. I said "get back on the DJ track", [/QUOTE]

Opps sorry Sugz. Regarding Coda I will never understand this argument that it was ''unreal'' Or ''fake''. I mean the show hinted even back to the scene of ''Its hard to imagine life without you'' that D/J saying good-bye was going to be a big deal. I mean what did D/J do in Coda? Sit and talk about the past and future.....what is so unreal about that? These are 2 people who have known one another almost all their lives and 1 was leaving 3000 miles away. I mean it makes sense they would spend Dawson's last talking about the past and the future. It was a big moment in Dawson's life and given Dawson was a big part of Joey's life it was for her as well saying Good-bye. Now if Pacey were still around some things would have been different like the kiss would not have happened but I still think D/J;'s good-bye would have been dramatic and epic. As for Jen well I think it shows how much she had grown since season 2 the fact she said that stuff to Joey and she knew how much they meant to 1 another.

maybe I am just being narrow minded because I love the episode but I just do not get what was unreal about 2 life long friends talking about the past and future saying good-bye as one was leaving.
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Old 07-27-2005, 11:11 AM
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Well thats really my point COOLCAT, Dawson and Joeys goodbye couldve been dramatic and epic without shipping Pacey away but it became forced because they had to do that.

In the context of season 4 it seemed like they just shoved Dawson and Joey together as if they'd been friends all along. I do agree that it was going to be an important moment since they were leaving for separate coasts but I do think they could've made it less like a separate episode from the rest of the season. I mean really, the entire episode all anyone ever did was talk about Dawson and Joey saying goodbye, not only was it the biggest snoozefest ever if you werent and avid DJ fan but it was just kind of ridiculous. It didnt jive with the season and perhaps that's why they named it "Coda" which in itself signifies a separation or an afterthought. I also thought some of their conversation was just silly like the answers to the questions they were asking one another it was just all fluff. Keep in mind this was a finale, it wasnt just another episode, I think it shouldve incorporated more of the other characters instead of making it an homage to Dawson and Joey when Dawson and Joey had barely been friends all seasons. I think it came off as forced and fake when they had to send one of the core characters to the Caribbean to even make it plausible. Like Ive said a few times on this thread already, that in itself screams that something is wrong with this story.

Anyway, that's just my viewpoint of it. Im sure most DJ fans look at it and see everthing that a finale should be because the show really did revolve around Dawson and Joey to them but to me it was really out of place.
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Old 07-27-2005, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Sugz
I agree that in season 2 Andie wouldve never done the things she'd done in season 3 but then again what happened to her between seasons 2 and 3? She went into a mental institution! If thats not grounds for a change in personality I dont know what is. And I dont even really intend on getting into evil Dawson in season 3, what he did was over the top at times but there's no doubt in my mind that in earlier seasons he showed glimmers of his personality in season 3 and he certainly had it in him to throw temper tantrums and get jealous. Ive always felt that way and in no way do I think they completely altered Dawsons personlity to make him the bad guy, they shed him in a bad light, but I do think Dawson had it in him to do the things he did. Just look at season 1, 2, even early season 3 when he got physically and verbally abusvie to Pacey.
Possible and credible are two different things.
And if Stupin himself (in season3 DVDs) comment said that they made the wrong choice in making her cheating on Pacey ,that it was a bit out of Andie's character and that she never totally recovered from that I think it can be true.
And even if Dawson had his flaws during the previous seasons. Nothing can be compared to his behaviour in season 3. If you tell me that at times he was sellfish and talked to much I'm right with you. But you have also to admit that he was always the first one to make amends after. The few times in which he offended Pacey in season 1 and 2 he always went to him to apologise.
And physical abuse?? Please. It was always Pacey who punched Dawson first. Dawson just reacted.
None will ever take it out of my mind that they did what they did to Andie and to Dawson just to make the whole PJ situation seem better and right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugz
Meanwhile, regarding Castaways, obviously the writers wanted to go down the Pacey and Joey route again, you cant blame them for that aftert going down the DJ road countless times, so they wanted to give Pacey and Joey another go. Why is it so hard to believe that two people can get stuck in a situation together that makes them really notice one another again? Especially after you were in love with that person once upon a time? Sure, Castaways was contrived, they were trapped in a KMart for heavens sake, but its a teenage drama! It's not as if they were just going to hang out on the couch watching TV and realize they were in love again. YOu have to keep in mind the fact that this is a television show, they're going to create some drama to facilitate things, it has to be exciting. I think thats a lot different from completely removing a character from an episode in order to facilitate a storyline, like I said, there's something wrong with that storyline in that case.
I do keep in mind that. I just find funny how you always find a way to justify the most wierd PJ situations and find totally lame or impossible the DJ ones.
Because let's face it. Coda had a longer build up than Castaways. But still two people closed in KMart are credible and fine, while two frist lovers who never completely let go of each other and were ONCE UPON A TIME in love couldn't talk about their past as friends and lovers before getting separte ways to go to college. I think that in both cases they did what they could to bring back the couple of the moment. That's what I was meaning.
Weird scenarios weren't only about DJ but also about PJ and the other couples.
And as I said before I found PJ's break up and Pacey sailing away credible and built up for many episodes.You don't. Fine.
We can have different opinions...and thank God.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugz
To me, absolutely. Not the idea they were going for in itself. Having Dawson and Joey kiss inthe finale wouldve been fine. But look at the episode as a whole, it was so silly. They sat in Dawsons room and packed and talked about their past. Not only is that a huge snore of a finale but it was so over the top. Joeys most memorable moment was kissing Dawson? Come on! What about when your nephew was born or when your mom died or hey, remember when your dad went to prison or when you got into Worthington? They couldve incorporated other stories into it. Maybe had Pacey leave in that episode or giving Jack and Jen something to work with other than making pushing Dawson and Joey together. Season 4 was not the best season for Dawson and Joey, regardless of what little sparks of jealousy we may have seen they BARELY had a friendship and suddenly inthe last episode they're right back to being best buds? So forced. I think Tom just really overdid himself in Coda and it carried on to season 5 and lo and behold, none of it worked out. But this is just my opinion. Im sure as a Dawson and Joey fan you loved every second of it. But from the viewpoint of a non DJ fan or evern a casual fan, that was probably the most hysterically forced/boring finale there ever was.
I did love it and I didn't found it fake at all.
DJ weren't on best terms in first half of the season ,but, as it was made clear more than once, they still considered the other a friend,a best friend and a first love.
It wasn't like they were completely out of each other's lives. They still tried more than once to get along again. Sure, it was difficult at first, but in the second part of the season they really did become closer and slowly friends again.
There were still sore points, but they did overcame their problems in the end.
Theri bond or their feelings weren't in discussion. Just think about the whole lending money moment or the "You'll always have a piece of my heart" speech.
They were missing each other, but they had to deal with their own feelings and with the difficult situation first. Otherwise it wouldn't have been credible I guess. I could never imagine Dawson being suddenly perfeclty fine with PJ at their return.
CODA was en episode incentred on the main character: Dawson.
He was leaving and starting college.
How were his friends feeling about this?
What is there of so much impossible or unbelievable ?To me Nothing.
Jack and Jen had grown very close to him during the last year so their fluffy actions and speeches sound absolutely realistic to me. Jack and Dawson had talked other times about his situation with Joey. It wasn't like Jack was pushing him toward her. He just knew how he was feeling and tried to make him confide.
The same is for Jen. I think she was always super partes in this awful triangle. She prefectly knew what Dawson meant to Joey. She always knew from season 1.
I didn't feel like Jen and Jack were talking about the romantic aspect of DJ anyhow, but just about their bond. And DJ were always bonded to me. Even in season 4.
Even if Joey was in love with Pacey she was missing her freindship with Dawson. In fact she treid to mend it more then once. And in the end they did mended it.
DJ seemed just fine after Four Stories. It didn't happen all at once in Coda. Look at Promecide,look at the Gradution or at the end of Separation Anxiety etc.
They were friends again.
Their talk in Dawsons' bedroom was a goodbye speech. And after all they had been trough together, I think that that speech was really really realistic.
Plus how many times did she remarke during the first three seasons how important Dawson was to her or how much their romance meant to her? I don't think that the comment about the kiss was so fake. Not at all.
I watched that episode with my mom the first time. She was a PJer and she didn't find it fake. She actually loves the episode as much as I do. So you can't generalize.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugz
I cant comperhend this, it seems like the biggest copout excuse in the world to me. They couldnt be together because they didnt know where one began and the other ended?! Joey didnt know who she really was? What does that even mean. THe girl is 16 years old, relationships are not that complicated at that age. You hold hands and see movies, you don thave to differentiate each others SOULS. its really not that difficult and if it IS that difficult, maybe you shouldnt be doing it!

Meanwhile I think you really overestimate Dawson and Joey. Yes, in the first maybe 2 seasons Joey and Dawson were pretty much bound together. They were together always they knew each other very well but in late season 2 and from season 3 on, this was NOT the case. THere are even a few instances where Dawson admitted he didnt really know Joey anymore and that fact was obvious in later seasons when they went long stretches without even talking. I know that season 1 was probably the best season for Dawson and Joey, when they were friends, but dont drag that dynamic they had into later seasons because it wasnt there anymore, they were hardly friends at some points and certainly didnt really know each other anymore. .
Well ,since Tom Kapinos and Berlanti and others said that they were soul mates but when you're so young is difficult to sustain a relationship llike that so they had to explore other relationships before to possibly come back to each other,I don't understand how it is such a lame excuse.
If even some writers did see things in the way I do, it shouldn't have been so impossible.
I may overstimate them but I think that you understimate the DJ romance and bond a lot.
Don't you think that when you're 16 in the middle of the growing up process,are confused,have a very difficult past behind and have lived in such a huge symbiosis with your best friend ,it could be a little scary and also confusing being in a romantic relationship with him and at the same time understand who you really are and what you really want?
As Joey herself said,for the most of the time she was just focused on getting together with Dawson,she was focused on him,his dreams etc, but not on her future or herself.
It was simply too much for her ,at that age, to handle and she needed to step back a little and find her way alone before of being with him.
And I do understand her. She was so closed to Dawson and in such a symbiosis with him that she really didn't know anymore what it was that Dawson wanted and what she wanted.Even if she loved Dawson she had to know who she was first or she would've just be dependent on him. What if Dawson had left her? SHe would've had nothing.
Maybe it's lame to you but Joey was always a very complicated,confused,scared and problematic character so I can see her behaviour.
And I also don't think that in the end DJ weren't friends anymore. They spent time apart but PJ spent more time apart then them.
How many times did PJ really talk in season 5?I mean seriously talk?Not so many.
DJ had their times on their own,but in the end they always found a way to mend their relationship and overcame their problems if not as a couple as friends.
And their bond and frienship stayed strong despite the ups and downs.
Just look at Goodbye YELLOW Brick Road and JOEY POTTER AND CAPESIDE REDAMPTION. No matter how much time they had spent apart ( and anyway they stayed apart,really apart only in season 6) they could still understand each other,talk and feel a bond. They weren't certainly strangers.
Even in the series finale the first person Joey goes to talk to is Dawson.
If he had been such a stranger to her she wouldn't have felt the need to go to him first.
Sure the growing up process torn them apart at times,but it's normal. It happens.But despite that their bond was still there.
I dont' think that PJ had such a great communication after season 4 and the few episodes of season 6 reunion. They didn't seem to have talked to each other for ages in the series finale as every one else except for Jack and Jen maybe.
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Old 07-27-2005, 11:16 AM
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Why could Coda be unrealistic? Because they kissed each other? Because they were sad because they were going into separate ways? I don't think that should be called unrealistic,because like it or not, Dawson and Joey meant something to each other, romantically or friendly, and every single time they had to say goodbye to each other it was painful... so I wouldn't call this an unrealistic thing...

Downtown Crossing and Castaways are, in my opinion, unrealistic episodes, I think the plot was weak... the storylines came of nowhere. Being locked on a supermarket or singing to your mugger in his death bed?? But, you know, I understand why PJers didn't complain about Castaways, though... we tend to see with other eyes something we care about...

ETA: Lor, totally agree with your thoughts...
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Old 07-28-2005, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lor-baby
Possible and credible are two different things.
True enough but "possible" is the only necessity for a teenage soap opera, "credible" certainly is not a requisite.


Quote:
And if Stupin himself (in season3 DVDs) comment said that they made the wrong choice in making her cheating on Pacey ,that it was a bit out of Andie's character and that she never totally recovered from that I think it can be true.
And even if Dawson had his flaws during the previous seasons. Nothing can be compared to his behaviour in season 3. If you tell me that at times he was sellfish and talked to much I'm right with you. But you have also to admit that he was always the first one to make amends after. The few times in which he offended Pacey in season 1 and 2 he always went to him to apologise.
And physical abuse?? Please. It was always Pacey who punched Dawson first. Dawson just reacted.

Im sure in hindsight Stupin regretted it, it didnt exactly shed Andie in the greatest light but that doesnt mean it wasn't possible. As for Dawson, I do beg to differ, not that it really matters who throws the first punch sometimes, it's really all about the reaction, if you can bring yourself to squarely punch a guy whom you just heinously insulted about his long time girlfriend that he was just cheated on by who, by the way, is SO DRUNK that he MISSED YOU when he tried to hit you first, then you definitely have it in you to do some of the things he did in late season 3. Plus Pacey did not alwasy throw the first punch, I recall a basketball incident in season 1 where Dawson was the one to get physical first.
Anyway Im not trying to change your mind on the Dawson/Andie facts of season 3. I do concede that they were not written in the greatest light perhaps to bring PAcey and Joey into the forefront but I can also remember a time in season 4 where Pacey was written like a jackass that scremed at his girlfriend in the middle of senior prom and Dawson was "picking up the pieces". SO it doesnt just happen to poor Dawson, it happens all the time when and with whom the writers want it to happen with.


Quote:
I do keep in mind that. I just find funny how you always find a way to justify the most wierd PJ situations and find totally lame or impossible the DJ ones.
Because let's face it. Coda had a longer build up than Castaways. But still two people closed in KMart are credible and fine, while two frist lovers who never completely let go of each other and were ONCE UPON A TIME in love couldn't talk about their past as friends and lovers before getting separte ways to go to college. I think that in both cases they did what they could to bring back the couple of the moment. That's what I was meaning.

Im positive that I agreed that Castaways was completely contrived, if you scroll up about 2 posts you'll find it. I have no problem whatsoever admitting that a Pacey and Joey situation was silly or contrived or that Pacey did something stupid, I never have, but I do think that a situation like Castaways, which was a sweeps episode, was about drama. Like I said before, certainly Pacey and Joey sitting on a couch watching movies and deciding they had feelings for one another again wouldnt be the greatest drama. But in Coda, thats exactly what they did, just more boring. I do agree that the situation are similar, two couples who hadnt approached romance ina long time rediscovering feelings but what I thought was silly about Coda that cannot be applied to Castaways was that just an episode before Joey was completely broken up over a relationship that had just ended and proceeded to completley forget about it come the next episode and season whereas in Castways, the situation was far more realtistic, Joey was broken up about a relationship and when that guy came back, she left Pacey. That makes sense, Coda did not. And dont tell me it was the magic of Dawson and Joey, it was just silly and a horrible, very regrettable way to make a transition between couples. Keep in mind, Im not saying that the outcome of Coda, JOey and Dawson rediscovering feelings for one another, was silly or contrived, I just thought the way they approached teh episode and the way they transitioned back to DJ was far too abrupt and cheesy.


Quote:
Weird scenarios weren't only about DJ but also about PJ and the other couples.
And as I said before I found PJ's break up and Pacey sailing away credible and built up for many episodes.You don't. Fine.
We can have different opinions...and thank God.
I dont recall saying I ever found PJs breakup or Pacey sailing away not credible. It certainly was, it was a long time coming that Pacey and Joey were going to break up, perhaps not in the way they did, I think Paceys violent feelings were a bit out of the blue aside from the actual episode of Promicide, but him actually deciding that their futures were too different and leaving was certainly credible. All I was saying was that they couldve incorporated him more into the finale instead of sending him away an episode before in order to make the last episode of the season completley saturated in DJ, like I said the transition into DJ couldve been a lot more natural and subtle.









Quote:
I may overstimate them but I think that you understimate the DJ romance and bond a lot.
Don't you think that when you're 16 in the middle of the growing up process,are confused,have a very difficult past behind and have lived in such a huge symbiosis with your best friend ,it could be a little scary and also confusing being in a romantic relationship with him and at the same time understand who you really are and what you really want? As Joey herself said,for the most of the time she was just focused on getting together with Dawson,she was focused on him,his dreams etc, but not on her future or herself.
It was simply too much for her ,at that age, to handle and she needed to step back a little and find her way alone before of being with him.
I dont think I underestimate DJ's bond, I just dont think it was as intense and fabulous as some people say in later seaons. The way I see it Joey and Dawson started with a great bond in season 1 that just continually diminished and diminished over the 6 year run of the show to the point where in the finale they hadnt contacted each other for 5 years. Plus I really feel as if you're making their early failed romance far more complicated that it needs to be,. if saying that their earlier friendship made it so hard for them to figureo ut who they were and carry on a romance makes you feel better about the fact that they couldnt be boyfriend and girlfriend for very long in season 2 then thats fine, I just think it's really not that critical. They simply thought that since they had such a great firnedship maybe romance was in the cards but it just never really was. It's as simple as that to me. because if you point of view is really correct then later on when they grew up and dated other people and lived out of symbiosis they probably wouldve been able to be together but they never were. I suppose there's an excuse for their later failure too though.




Quote:
And I also don't think that in the end DJ weren't friends anymore. They spent time apart but PJ spent more time apart then them.
How many times did PJ really talk in season 5?I mean seriously talk?Not so many.
DJ had their times on their own,but in the end they always found a way to mend their relationship and overcame their problems if not as a couple as friends.
And their bond and frienship stayed strong despite the ups and downs.
I SOOO disagree with this. First, I never actually said DJ werent friends anymore in the end. Of course they were, they always would be. I just said that it was implicitly said in the finale that they hadnt contacted each other in 5 years. Plus just like PJ hadnt really spoken much in season 5, how much did Dawson an dJoey "really" talk in season 6? I recall a Christmas truce and then not so much from then until the very few last episode of the season and THEN they didnt talk for 5 years! So I dont think they werent friends, just not very close ones anymore.
Meanwhile I dont think you're seeing both sides of it. One thing I've always adored about Pacey and Joey is that even after they broke up they were great friends, Pacey and Joey really never had any horrible fall outs. The only time they really didnt talk all that much was before they were good friends/lover sin season 2 and in season 5 when they had moved on but were STILL friends. Meanwhile I cant count on one hand how many huge fallouts Dawson an dJoey have had where they didnt tlk to each other or were angry at each other. SO how you can say that despite the ups and downs they always stayed friends and try to make that a trump card over Pacey and Joey is beyond me. Pacey and Joey were the same, if not far more stable in the friendship/steady relationship department.
Not that Im comparing their bond, I think that Dawson and Joeys early bond in season 1 really lasted I just think that it says something that after almost every big fight or situation that happened with them they pretty much hada three month fall out, sure they always made up, but the point is there were a lot of points over the series where they really were estranged, I dont know of any time where Pacey and Joey were purposely estranged over something aside from between seasons 4 and 5 where they were on good terms though.


Quote:
Why could Coda be unrealistic? Because they kissed each other? Because they were sad because they were going into separate ways? I don't think that should be called unrealistic,because like it or not, Dawson and Joey meant something to each other, romantically or friendly, and every single time they had to say goodbye to each other it was painful... so I wouldn't call this an unrealistic thing...
Dude, Ijust explained it like...a gajillion times over my last few posts, I cant say it all again. If you really wanna know why I found it unrealistic just scroll up where I explained my POV again.
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Old 07-28-2005, 09:44 AM
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Sugz, I don't remember asking you to explain me anything again to me. Just like you, I'm giving my POV.
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Old 07-28-2005, 10:05 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrisBR
Why could Coda be unrealistic? Because they kissed each other? Because they were sad because they were going into separate ways? I don't think that should be called unrealistic,because like it or not, Dawson and Joey meant something to each other, romantically or friendly, and every single time they had to say goodbye to each other it was painful... so I wouldn't call this an unrealistic thing...

Downtown Crossing and Castaways are, in my opinion, unrealistic episodes, I think the plot was weak... the storylines came of nowhere. Being locked on a supermarket or singing to your mugger in his death bed?? But, you know, I understand why PJers didn't complain about Castaways, though... we tend to see with other eyes something we care about...

ETA: Lor, totally agree with your thoughts...

I do consider that first bit asking for my opinion on why Coda was unrealistic. Youa ctually asked "WHy could Coda be unrealistic?". something which Ive been posting about for the past few days. But Ill say it again, maybe more concisely. I dont think that Coda was unrealistic per se regarding the final outcome of Dawson an dJoey in season 4. Dawson an dJoey kissing and reconnecting was probably really realistic. After all, Joey has been known to go somewhere else for comfort when she's feeling abandoned. She did it with pacey in season 6, Dawson in season 4. What I feel was unrealistic was everything surrounding Dawson and Joey in this episode. I feel like their reconnection couldve been brought on far more subtly and naturally instead of having everyone in the episode concerned with Joey and Dawson when Joey and Dawson really hadnt been vintage Joey and Dawson for so long yet everyone from Bessie to Jen was pushing them together while one of the core characters was off inthe Caribbean with a cell phone with whom he called...say it with me now...DAWSON. Hysterical. Personally, I just feel like the conversation was over the top and the entire episode was a piece of DJ fluff that made their reconnection seem really eye roll worthy. It couldve come off a lot sweeter if it were more subtle in my opinion and other people were actually given storylines in the finale besides making Dawson and Joey feel like theyr'e the only people who existed. SImply my opinion (and a lot of others). Bottom line, I think Coda was hideously arced out in connection with the season it followed.

And like I said in my last post. Castways was contrived. I dont know how many times I, as a Pacey and Joey fan have to admit that before people stop telling me I see it the way I want to. YESSSS, it was contrived that Joey and PAcey got locked in a KMart over night. But like I said...teen soap opera! If Dawson can legitimately drop out of film school to be with Joey and then 5 years later have his own production company and tv show then hell yea Pacey and Joey can get themselves locked in a KMart.
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Old 07-28-2005, 10:06 AM
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Right on Sugz, couldn't agree more. The show (at one point) had so many contrived moments .. I stopped pointing them out.
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Old 07-28-2005, 04:31 PM
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Is it really unrealistic that Jack and Jen said what they said to D/J? think about it before Coda they both did knew D/J meant a lot to one another. Now Dawson's leaving is it really unreal to think that Jen would pick up on the fact Joey was going to miss Dawson? Or Jack knew he was going to miss Joey? I can understand P/Jers not liking Coda and think it's a ''Borefest''. To me it was a beautiful episode showing the incredible bond D/J will always have. Now I do think maybe they should have included other people a little more and maybe the kiss should have been a hug but I still think it was beautiful episode. Even the cut scene with Gale/Joey is very nice. I did not need a action packed finale like season 3 for it to be good. But in all honestly I do see why P/Jers dislike it but I don't agree that it was unreal.
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