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Old 07-24-2005, 05:52 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Sugz
I really dont think we all know why a DJ ending didnt happen and have a feeling that you and I would differ in our opinions of why it didnt happen in the end but the fact is that it didnt happen so it doesnt matter which writer said he wanted it to, the fact of the matter is Dawson and Joey ending up together was never promised or implicitly stated. This is really the reason why I feel like so many Dawson and Joey fans were SO devastated when Dawson and Joey didnt end the series together because they took things such as Joey showing sporatic moments of insecurity over Dawsons short lived season 4 girlfriend to mean that Dawson and Joey were meant to be. It's not factual and sort of a stretch however, to each his own, if that's how people want to take it, even though Dawson and Joey never truly got together post season 2, then that's fine but I do think it's a large reason why so many people were so disappointed with the finale because they built themselves up into believeing that these little things were promises or signs from the writers when nothing was ever really promised. I do think that the writer dropped hints here and there but only to keep both fanbases watching for as long as possible not to say "This glance or line is in here to show that DJ are soulmates". It was to string people along, and it worked like a charm.

Back on track, like I said before, I thought Mind Games was a good episode and yes it was odd that Pacey and Joey got class couple being that they were supposedly outcasts and all but hey, it's Pacey and Joey, right?
I couldn't disagree more Sugz.
The fact that the most of the writers said that the show was about DJ and that they were soulmates and the power of the show was about them finding their way back to each other says a lot.
Anne Fricke even said that THAT was what the show was about "regardless her opinion" so I don't think she was exactly a DJ fan.
I don't think that we built up ourselves. The writers build us up and they knew it.
Kevin wouldn't have written a DJ finale first otherwise.
None will ever change my mind about this. They did give us many hints but more DJ hints than PJ ones until season 6. And the simple fact that joey could forget about Pacey but never forget(from season1 until the end) Dawson completely was just a proof.
To me they brought back PJ only because the most of the audience shipped them and the show wasn't going very well..so after trying with DJ one last time in season 5 they went for PJ again.
I also think that they wanted to recreate the triangle in the end of season 6 on purpose to create tension about the finale.
But I'm really convinced that for the most of the time they were heading toward DJ not PJ. There were too many hints.
Even the 100th episode was all about them.
Dawson realizing he still loved Joey,Pacey telling Joey that she should give Charlie a shot and not waiting for Dawson,Pacey reminding Joey that Dawson always wins in the end and is never in the past etc.
As I said too many DJ hints throughout the whole series. We didn't get so many PJ hints. Never. In fact the most of the PJers,even friends of mine,expected DJ ending up together in the end...this should tell something.
The audience dictated the result. And you should be all proud of yourselves not ashamed. After all you changed the end.
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Old 07-25-2005, 01:01 AM
  #32
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I think the audience definetly had an effect on the finale ... but both camps won, in the end. One got the ending on the show, and the other forever. Honestly, which group do you think got the better ending? The couple in the NYC apartment, or the two soulmates who will always have a bond, that transcends everything else. I'm surprised people were so negative about the ending. Like I said, it seemed to me that if DJ were together, we'd have this air of uncertainty, and this feeling that it's not over, and it won't last, because something always gets in the way. In the end, it made sense to end where they'll always have that bond, which they had from the beginning, and the possiblity of a reuinion isn't impossible.

If anything, the PJers got the short end of the stick, and KW was writing true to the series.
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Old 07-25-2005, 03:47 AM
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To be honest I was seeing things in that way at first as well and I do think that writers chose the only ending that could somewhat satisfy both camps. I mean, for Pacey and Joey was all or nothing 'cause they never had the deep bond and connection that always existed btw Dawson and Joey. We could've never had Pacey and Joey telling each other on a dock that what they have is forever and trascends everything. We all know that.
So they just gave Forever to DJ and The Happy Ending to Pacey and Joey.
But it's not like the writers wanted us to think that DJ could've ever been together as a couple again...I mean in the comment Kevin and Stupin did say that Joey's choice was final,plus she said that her love for Dawson was linked to her childhood while the one she has for Pacey was real and meant to be all along.
So there's really no hope for a DJ reaunion. In our minds maybe,but the writers didn't want to let us think that it could have happen years later.
That's probably what bothers the most of us. That DJ were written to end up together (as the writers said more than once during the years) and in the end they didn't. It was a bad joke. Especially the Joey's line "I've always known who I was meant to be with" or the one in which she was saying that was running away from Pacey all these years.
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Old 07-25-2005, 06:15 AM
  #34
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I was actually happy with the series finale... I mean it tied up everything. I dont even think it was about D/J or P/J.... i think it was about these 4 friends coming to terms with things that that they are going in their lives and really be happy with it. it wasnt just about who joey was going to choose.
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Old 07-25-2005, 09:55 AM
  #35
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I couldn't disagree more Sugz.
The fact that the most of the writers said that the show was about DJ and that they were soulmates and the power of the show was about them finding their way back to each other says a lot.
Anne Fricke even said that THAT was what the show was about "regardless her opinion" so I don't think she was exactly a DJ fan.
I don't think that we built up ourselves. The writers build us up and they knew it.
Kevin wouldn't have written a DJ finale first otherwise.
None will ever change my mind about this. They did give us many hints but more DJ hints than PJ ones until season 6. And the simple fact that joey could forget about Pacey but never forget(from season1 until the end) Dawson completely was just a proof.
To me they brought back PJ only because the most of the audience shipped them and the show wasn't going very well..so after trying with DJ one last time in season 5 they went for PJ again.
I also think that they wanted to recreate the triangle in the end of season 6 on purpose to create tension about the finale.
But I'm really convinced that for the most of the time they were heading toward DJ not PJ. There were too many hints.
Even the 100th episode was all about them.
Dawson realizing he still loved Joey,Pacey telling Joey that she should give Charlie a shot and not waiting for Dawson,Pacey reminding Joey that Dawson always wins in the end and is never in the past etc.
As I said too many DJ hints throughout the whole series. We didn't get so many PJ hints. Never. In fact the most of the PJers,even friends of mine,expected DJ ending up together in the end...this should tell something.
The audience dictated the result. And you should be all proud of yourselves not ashamed. After all you changed the end.

I do agree that a few times there were writers who can be quoted as saying that Dawson and Joey are soulmates and the show is about them, but who decided that this meant romance? I agree that Dawson's Creek was primarily about Dawson and Joey (in the beginning, then more about just Joey) but I dont think that this means that everyong felt that they shouldve ended up together. It was about their dynamic throughout the show, their bond and their friendship and the majority of that bond did not include romance. I just dont feel like it means much when a writers says in an interview that he feels a certain way because in the end, that doesnt really matter, it's not all up to the writers what happens on a show, it has a lot to do with what the network wants and connected to the is what the fans want and as you admitted, a LOT of fans wanted Pacey and Joey and Pacey and Joey ended up being together so really what did it matter what a writer in an interview said? That's my point. I honestly dont think that any of the writers were nearly as passionate (maybe with the exception of Kevin Williamson) as any of us may have thought they were about these characters/relationships. The main aim of a TV show is to keep people watching so they can keep their jobs and put food on their tables and if that meant breaking up Dawson and Joey over nothing countless times and putting Joey and Pacey together whether they liked them or not they'll do that.

I feel as if a lot of DJ fans saw the good as a lead on but ignored the bad. Sure, you could say that Joey following Dawson to the airport was a lead on to a Dawson and Joey romance and the writrs faked you guys out and gave you signs but couldnt you say that Dawson sleeping with someone else and Joey at the same time and them breaking up over that was saying "NO, these two are not meant to be"? How come you can take the good as a sign but ignore the bad?
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Old 07-25-2005, 11:02 AM
  #36
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Sugz ,I think we're saying more or less the same thing ,but our POVs are different.
I personally take in huge consideration what Greg Berlanti or Tom Kapinos or other very important writers on the show said cause they were a huge part of DC.
I'll pass you Anne Fircke or other ones who weren't that important but not those two. And in their interviews they didn't just say that DJ were the heart of the show ,but that they were somehow supposed to be together and meant to be and those words to me mean ROMANCE not friendship. I also think that even if DJ weren't really together(at least for more than few hours) after season two everything was more about their tormented romance and undied feelings, than about their friendship. Nothing after season 1 was ever simply platonical btw them. There were so many discussions and hints about them being more than friends waiting for the right timing and loving each other and denying it. Too many I may say.
It was always about them as soulmates and almost never about them as just friends.
Before it was Joey who wanted him and he wanted Jen,then he wanted Joey and she got with Jack to find herself,then again they wanted each other but her dad got in the way,then Joey wanted him back but he wasn't ready,then Joey wanted Pacey and Dawson Joey again,then Joey was jealous of him and Gretchen,Pacey dumped Joey,Gretchen dumped Dawson,DJ kissed,Joey wanted Dawson ,he needed to find himself and got with Jen,then Dawson understood to still love Joey,Joey ran away and then back to him telling him she loved him,then they slept together,then they broke up because of the Natasha mess,then there's Eddie,then Pacey but she doesn't feel it,then the triangle again with Joey telling Dawson that for the longest time she wanted him to be her boyfriend in GYBR.
I mean the show was their saga. If you cut everything else in every single triangle you'll find Dawson and Joey in the way. Joey who pines for Dawson or viceversa Dawson who pines for Joey.Even when she's with Pacey Dawson is always in the way.
All this thing has been brought on from the beginning until the end. I don't think that it was just a casual thing. I think that the show was meant to end with them together.
Then I agree that audience and network dictate the most of the times the end of the show or the twists or wathever. I'm not saying that it is wrong but I do believe that audience and net-work dictated the PJ ending. I'm sure.
And it's not like I don't keep in mind the bad things. I do. And I would've given up on DJ after season 4 if they had pictured Pacey and Joey and Dawson and Joey under a different light.
I see and know DJ's flawns but their bond and their love seemed to stay strong throughout the whole show and that amazed me. It really seemed like Joey was this scared girl who truly loved the boy she had grwon up with but didn't want to admit it. Because true love was scary and because she feared that being with him could mean not growing up or not achieve her dreams and nevertheless at 16 years old you're too young to make a relationship so overwhelming work well. You need to grow up.
I would've accepted the PJ end better after season 4,but after that it was all so rushed and not very believable to me. What I'm saying is that if writers really believed that PJ had to end up together..well they should've handled them in a very different way during the whole season 5 and the most part of the 6th and,most of all,they should've put the word END to Dawson and Joey at the end of season 3.
But they didn't. They brought them on from the beginning until the end making them seem the Romeo and Juliet of the situation as Pacey brilliantly said in The Long Goodbye ,just to change their mind in the end because they didn't want to disappoint the most of the fans. That's what bothers me.
The heart of the show wasn't their friendship,but their more than friendly feelings.Always.
Jen could be put aside,Pacey could be put aside but never Dawson and Joey. Not completely. It was always about one following the other and the other one running away.It was always about bad timing or fears. That's what bother me. This doesn't mean that I'm not aware of the True Meaning of the series finale,'cause I am. But I can't really watch this show and think that Pacey and Joey were meant to be all along. I can see the great Josh and Kathie chemistry but not the PJ romance as the leading romance of the show. I've tried.Really. Especially after the end. But I just can't.
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Old 07-25-2005, 11:31 AM
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I guess it just comes down to the fact that we have extremely different views of the relationship Dawson and Joey had after season 2. You see it as a Romeo and Juliet type situation where two star crossed lovers couldnt get their act together and things kept getting in the way and I see it as two people whose relationship, friensdhip and otherwise, slowly fell apart year by year to the point where they didnt even speak or interact for weeks or months yet couldnt let go of some childhood bond they once shared and couldnt work out their problems to actually make a relationship work past one night. To you it seemed amazing, to me it was really pathetic. I suppose thats all it comes down to.

I still dont believe that it matters a bit what a writer says, regardless of what a writer feels he cant write it his way. Whether they favored Pacey and Joey or Dawson and Joey, who cares?! Because if, as you say, they were all over Dawson and Joey then why did they never get together? Why did Pacey and Joey end up together? I just dont get it and that really is what leads me to the conclusion that these writers just dropped hints here and there but never pulled the triggeron Dawson and Joey just to keep people watching. Thats all. Not as a sign that DJ were meant to be because in the end they werent.
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Old 07-25-2005, 12:14 PM
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I still dont believe that it matters a bit what a writer says, regardless of what a writer feels he cant write it his way. Whether they favored Pacey and Joey or Dawson and Joey, who cares?! Because if, as you say, they were all over Dawson and Joey then why did they never get together? Why did Pacey and Joey end up together? I just dont get it and that really is what leads me to the conclusion that these writers just dropped hints here and there but never pulled the triggeron Dawson and Joey just to keep people watching. Thats all. Not as a sign that DJ were meant to be because in the end they werent.
Well Stupin himself said that they feard to loose the dynamic of the show putting DJ together permanently so they just made them get together and break up over and over again as the most of the tv couples do (just think of Ross and Rachel).
That's why I think they kept them apart or put things in their way.I'm not saying that I'm a fan of the ON-OFF relationship 'cause usually I'm not,they are my exception to the rule I guess,but this kind of thing happens for the most of the leading couples on every shows.That's why I was always sourprised to see that people hated DJ just because of it when it happens not always ,but very very often on every shows I've seen.
And for PJ I think they decided for them for the following reason: the audience. Plain and simple. Stupin always took in great consideration the people's opinion and didn't really want to disappoint the majority in the end. If they had let DJ get the Happy Ending what would've had PJ? They surely never had the family-friendship bond that trascends everything and stays strong no matter what. What made PJ special to the audience was their chemistry as couple. There wasn't really another way to make their fans happy.
The series finale was the best compromise they could come out with.
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Old 07-25-2005, 12:26 PM
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I definitely agree as to the reason why Pacey and Joey ended up together and Dawson and Joey didnt, it really was the only plausible way. It wouldve been pretty funny if Joey and Pacey wouldve tried to pull off a "We'll always have each other and be best friends and soulmates" schpiel and it wouldve been equally as funny had Dawson and Joey said "We're gonna get together now and make this work" since neither even had either. So yes, I definitely agree that Joey and Pacey got together in the end because thats what the majority wanted and both fanbases got something but isnt that how it should be? It's what the viewers want? Not so much what the writers want is it?

I do not agree though that they intentionally kept Joey and Dawson apart to make it suspenseful or so as to not ruin the dynamic because for one what a waste, they didnt even put them together in the end! And for two, they went about it the WROOOONG way if they intended on keeping Dawson and Joey apart and then going for the satisfying ending. Its SO different from Ross and Rachel, Ross and Rachel dated andthen broke up and had other relationships, satisfying ones, they had other loves and other storylines and they didnt constantly bash the viewers over the head with "ROss and Rachel" all the time. With Dawson and Joey, they kept picking them up again and slamming them back down to the ground, breaking them a little bit more each time and I think a lot of the audience simply got bored and tired of them. I dont think the way to go about getting fans to root for a couple is to keep putting these horrible road blocks in their way and having the fail miserably with each other. I think they needed to really step away from Dawson and Joey in those middle seasons instead of constantly dropping anvils and having them go back to each other just to screw each other over again maybe thats why in the end the majority wanted Pacey and Joey, because they made such a messof DJ in the meantime.
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Old 07-25-2005, 12:50 PM
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I definitely agree as to the reason why Pacey and Joey ended up together and Dawson and Joey didnt, it really was the only plausible way. It wouldve been pretty funny if Joey and Pacey wouldve tried to pull off a "We'll always have each other and be best friends and soulmates" schpiel and it wouldve been equally as funny had Dawson and Joey said "We're gonna get together now and make this work" since neither even had either. So yes, I definitely agree that Joey and Pacey got together in the end because thats what the majority wanted and both fanbases got something but isnt that how it should be? It's what the viewers want? Not so much what the writers want is it?
I'm not saying that they did a mistake in satisfying the audience or the most of it in the end ,but since they already knew that the most of the fans loved PJ why they had to treat PJ like crap in season 5 and keep on the DJ saga instead?
And about a DJ ending...well you'll surely disagree with it but I would 've found it much more coherent with the rest of the series. After all their saga was always the heart and to me it wasn't unthinkable that two perosns ,who have always decleared to love each other ,but couldn't make their relationship work 'cause they were too young,or too scared or simply 'casue the timing was bad, after the growing up process could really let their love prevails and try to not run away from problems but deal with them in the end. I always got the idea that Joey was running away from Dawson because she had this fear of not growing up but not because she didn't really love him.So to me it would've made sense for them to end up together in end. The wedding scene,or better the wedding dialogue btw them in the finale's dream,expresses my pov perfectly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugz
I do not agree though that they intentionally kept Joey and Dawson apart to make it suspenseful or so as to not ruin the dynamic because for one what a waste, they didnt even put them together in the end! And for two, they went about it the WROOOONG way if they intended on keeping Dawson and Joey apart and then going for the satisfying ending. Its SO different from Ross and Rachel, Ross and Rachel dated andthen broke up and had other relationships, satisfying ones, they had other loves and other storylines and they didnt constantly bash the viewers over the head with "ROss and Rachel" all the time. With Dawson and Joey, they kept picking them up again and slamming them back down to the ground, breaking them a little bit more each time and I think a lot of the audience simply got bored and tired of them. I dont think the way to go about getting fans to root for a couple is to keep putting these horrible road blocks in their way and having the fail miserably with each other. I think they needed to really step away from Dawson and Joey in those middle seasons instead of constantly dropping anvils and having them go back to each other just to screw each other over again maybe thats why in the end the majority wanted Pacey and Joey, because they made such a messof DJ in the meantime.
Well in the comment on Season 2 DvD Stupin said that the writers decided to make DJ break up to not loose the dynamic of the first season and he himself said that they probably made the wrong choice in keeping doing that throughout the seasons because that had the opposite effect on the audience.
In fact i think you're right when you say that this off and on thing btw DJ really make the audience prefer PJ. I also think that they should've dealt with them in a different way but I don't really think that they did it to make DJ seem wrong for each other. I think the aim was the opposite. They just chose the wrong road. And when they were ready to try with them again was simply too late because the most of the audience already hated them and loved PJ.
About Ross and Rachel I just mantioned them because they're one of the best exemple of an OFF and ON relationship.
The reason why for them was different was because the show wasn't about them and most of all it wasn't a drama but a sit-com. But we did get plenty of hints along the way even when they were with other persons that they were sort of meant to be. Form their mouths and form the other characters' mouths and the same happened for DJ.
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Old 07-25-2005, 04:48 PM
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Stupin said on the season 2 dvd looking back he does not think they paid off all the D/Jers well in season 2.
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Old 07-25-2005, 08:53 PM
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Stupin said on the season 2 dvd looking back he does not think they paid off all the D/Jers well in season 2.
They didn't ... it was a slap in the face. It basically setup to the fans, that D/J were never going to be happy together. That something was always going to complicate things ... and it ruined the build-up of S1.
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Old 07-25-2005, 10:10 PM
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Agreed 100% They spent all that time building it up in season 1 and to just break them up like that the first time was wrong.
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Old 07-26-2005, 07:48 AM
  #44
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I'm not saying that they did a mistake in satisfying the audience or the most of it in the end ,but since they already knew that the most of the fans loved PJ why they had to treat PJ like crap in season 5 and keep on the DJ saga instead?

I dont think it's fair to compare the end of the series with the beginning of season 5. Keep in mind that the beginning of season five directly followed over 20 episodes of Pacey and Joey being together. There was no doubt in anyone's mind that they'd try to go the way of DJ again after a whole season and a half almost of Pacey and Joey and with the fact that Tom Kapinos was then running the show. But because of the fact that there were so many PJ fans out there the only way to go back down the DJ route was to completely ignore Pacey and Joey. The situation was different in season 6. THey'd already given Dawson and Joey more than a chance and it was time to close out the show and even through a whole season and a half of ignoring Pacey and Joey in the end it was still what most of the fans wanted.


Quote:
And about a DJ ending...well you'll surely disagree with it but I would 've found it much more coherent with the rest of the series. After all their saga was always the heart and to me it wasn't unthinkable that two perosns ,who have always decleared to love each other ,but couldn't make their relationship work 'cause they were too young,or too scared or simply 'casue the timing was bad, after the growing up process could really let their love prevails and try to not run away from problems but deal with them in the end. I always got the idea that Joey was running away from Dawson because she had this fear of not growing up but not because she didn't really love him.So to me it would've made sense for them to end up together in end. The wedding scene,or better the wedding dialogue btw them in the finale's dream,expresses my pov perfectly.
I dont agree that Joey and Dawson never made it work because they were too young or too scared or because of bad timing. They had plenty of chances, far more than Pacey and Joey and Pacey and Joey made it work for a long time, yet Dawson and Joey couldnt and it wasnt because of trivial things. It was because her father was sent to prison in part because of him or because he slept with her while he had a girlfriend or because his dad died and didnt want anything to do with her. Those arent "bad timing" insrtances those are situations that Dawson and Joey brought upon themselves and scream to me "not meant to be". Like I said, it's all about perception. You see those things as outside forces that kept DJ apart I see them as situations that Dawson and Joey brought upon themselves.

Regarding the wedding scene in the finale, funnily enough, that dream expresses my point of view perfectly as well. It was a spoof, it was poking fun at Dawson and Joey! They were standing up at the altar going through all of the crappy things they'd done to one another through the years, it was comical! It made it seem ridiculous that these two could ever work out, it literally showcased the dysfunctionality of Dawson and Joey through the years. I suppose it epitomized Dawson and Joey to the both of us but in very different ways. It certainly didnt say to me that throughout all those thing sthey still got together because the point was they'd never make it together because look at their track record. So I certainly dont think that Dawson and Joey ending the series supposedly being together forever after not being able to make it past a night after the age of 16 would make more sense than a pair that had two relationships far more in depth and long term than Dawson and Joey ever had romantically.




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Well in the comment on Season 2 DvD Stupin said that the writers decided to make DJ break up to not loose the dynamic of the first season and he himself said that they probably made the wrong choice in keeping doing that throughout the seasons because that had the opposite effect on the audience.
In fact i think you're right when you say that this off and on thing btw DJ really make the audience prefer PJ. I also think that they should've dealt with them in a different way but I don't really think that they did it to make DJ seem wrong for each other. I think the aim was the opposite. They just chose the wrong road. And when they were ready to try with them again was simply too late because the most of the audience already hated them and loved PJ.

I pretty much agree with this. Although I dont think that they tried to make Dawson and Joey look wrong for each other, I just think that in the end that's what it ended up looking like.
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Old 07-26-2005, 09:23 AM
  #45
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I dont think it's fair to compare the end of the series with the beginning of season 5. Keep in mind that the beginning of season five directly followed over 20 episodes of Pacey and Joey being together. There was no doubt in anyone's mind that they'd try to go the way of DJ again after a whole season and a half almost of Pacey and Joey and with the fact that Tom Kapinos was then running the show. But because of the fact that there were so many PJ fans out there the only way to go back down the DJ route was to completely ignore Pacey and Joey. The situation was different in season 6. They'd already given Dawson and Joey more than a chance and it was time to close out the show and even through a whole season and a half of ignoring Pacey and Joey in the end it was still what most of the fans wanted.
I do keep in mind that PJ stayed together for 20 episodes or more including season 3. That's why treating them that way in season 5,like nothing had happened,like Joey had only had Dawson on her mind for the whole summer ,even if she had just been dumped by her one year-boyfriend Pacey, seemed like a way to say:"Yep Pacey's fears in season4 about Joey always choosing Dawson in the end were totally justified".
If I look at the whole show I can't help but think that that the DJ relationship always came first. Even if PJ stayed together for almost an year their main problem from the very beginning 'till the end was Dawson and Pacey's ensecurities toward him. I mean, how it comes that Joey couldn't completely take Dawson out of her mind 2 seasons after the break up and could,otherwise,get Pacey out of it after few weeks?
If you look at season 5, keeping in mind the 4 past seasons, you really begin to think that after all Joey's love for Dawson was the strongest one because she could never get him out of her head.
About season 6 I think that it was just a mess.
A mess for DJ and a mess for PJ. Both these romances came out in a bad way to me.
With Pacey"she didn't feel it",with Dawson "was a huge mistake".
But while I took the huge mistake's line as a sort of rebound for Joey toward Dawson (she had just been hurt by him and wanted to make him feel her pain),I felt like she was completely honest with Pacey. Like she really did wanted Eddie in that moment and had hung out with him because she was feeling lonely and it was nice to relive the old memories.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugz
I dont agree that Joey and Dawson never made it work because they were too young or too scared or because of bad timing. They had plenty of chances, far more than Pacey and Joey and Pacey and Joey made it work for a long time, yet Dawson and Joey couldnt and it wasnt because of trivial things. It was because her father was sent to prison in part because of him or because he slept with her while he had a girlfriend or because his dad died and didnt want anything to do with her. Those arent "bad timing" insrtances those are situations that Dawson and Joey brought upon themselves and scream to me "not meant to be". Like I said, it's all about perception. You see those things as outside forces that kept DJ apart I see them as situations that Dawson and Joey brought upon themselves.
They had plenty of chances I'm with you, but I do think that their fears and bad timing played a huge role in them never getting together.
At first Joey was confused and had to find herself,then she was confused by her difficult family's situation,then it was Dawson who wasn't ready because he didn't want to be hurt again,then she fell for Pacey,then they decided to keep things slow to not rush into anything like had happened before,then Dawson's father death kept in the way. Dawson was devasted and confused so pushed Joey away.
It was always because they were too young and had to find who they really were,or because of an external event or because of the fear of being hurt etc.
I think that PJ and DJ can't really be compared because the DJ bond was deeper from the beginning. They had grown up together,they were used to always stay together and be there for each other...it's normal that at 16 years old you can feel that a relationship of this kind is too much,too overwhelming or even confusing because they've always been so so close.They had almost become one person and before to stay together they had to discover who they really were alone. The fact is that they couldn't be apart either because they needed each other and that made everything worse.
I don't think anyhow that there were OUTSIDE FORCES that kept them apart. I mean,yes the external events (like Joey's dad put in prison or Mitch's death) played a role in the game ,but it was also and mostly their fault:when one was ready the other one wasn't or was simply scared by the possibilty of being hurt or not growing up.
Fears,bad timing and young age aren't OUTSIDE FORCES are very linked to who we are as persons to a certain point of our life.
I think that for Pacey and Joey things were easier in that sense ,because they were different people who,yes grew up together, but were never that close to each other before of season 3. It was something pretty new and less confusing in that sense. The main problem in the PJ relationshp was in fact Dawson.
And just for the record,I usually am not a fan of the FIRST LOVE THING. I do think that the most of the times True Love comes with time ,when you're older and wiser. I also do not believe in star-crossed lovers. But I do think that when you're so young it can be very difficult to handle a romance that is overwhelming and confusing ,so it can happen that two soul mates stay apart and can't find a way to deal with it for a while and get together when are older and ready to.
I also think that you can't have a DJ kind of relationship for 40 years or so.That would be really unhealty and pathetic( the best exemple that comes to my mind right now are Chris and Lorelai from Gilmore Girls.These two haven't been together since they were 16 and have hardly seen each other during the last 20 years of their lives and still in the first two seasons we had to get through all the Star-crossed lovers'crap when it came to thes two. And even this year from Christopher's mouth.) but when you're so young...well to me it's not impossible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugz
Regarding the wedding scene in the finale, funnily enough, that dream expresses my point of view perfectly as well. It was a spoof, it was poking fun at Dawson and Joey! They were standing up at the altar going through all of the crappy things they'd done to one another through the years, it was comical! It made it seem ridiculous that these two could ever work out, it literally showcased the dysfunctionality of Dawson and Joey through the years. I suppose it epitomized Dawson and Joey to the both of us but in very different ways. It certainly didnt say to me that throughout all those thing sthey still got together because the point was they'd never make it together because look at their track record. So I certainly dont think that Dawson and Joey ending the series supposedly being together forever after not being able to make it past a night after the age of 16 would make more sense than a pair that had two relationships far more in depth and long term than Dawson and Joey ever had romantically.
..UHM Yep we definetly have different views of the scenes. Let's agree about this






Quote:
Originally Posted by Sugz
I pretty much agree with this. Although I dont think that they tried to make Dawson and Joey look wrong for each other, I just think that in the end that's what it ended up looking like.
I agree with this. It wasn't my case,but I do understand why people got tired of them in the end. Although I have to say that also the PJ thing at the end of season 6 was pretty lame and wasn't exactly screaming MEANT TO BE.
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