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Old 07-21-2005, 08:27 AM
  #16
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No, I definitely agree that Joey was never 100% comfortable with Dawson and Gretchen, she was very much a "have your cake and eat it too" person in season 4 and she didnt like the idea that someone may have been taking her place in Dawsons life but I never agreed that it meant that Joey wanted Dawson and I never agreed that it was as big of a deal as some people made it because nothing ever came of it. There was an uncomfortable smile here, and awkward conversation there but it was never enough for Joey to do anything about it and that's why I feel like it was just a bit of selfishness onf Joeys part. She wasnt comfortable with GRetchen taking her place in Dawsons life but that didnt mean she wanted Dawson. I think it was obvious that she really was with whom she wanted to be with in season 4 and that was Pacey. In the end her underlying selfishness really did end up driving Pacey off of the deep end though.

That said, I have to disagree that the PJ scene in Mind Games was anything like the Great Xpectations scene. In Great X Joey had just found out about Dawson and Gretchen and was curious and did show some insecurity, in the pizza scene Joey was not wishy washy at all when she told Pacey she wasnt concerned with Dawson and Gretchen, it was actually probably the one scene where she was seemed sincere and her words had conviction behind them. Hallelujah.
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Old 07-21-2005, 11:54 AM
  #17
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Well Sugz I can see your point about Joey's reaction to Dawson&Gretchen and all. I do believe me.
And I'm the first to say that Joey did loved Pacey in season 4. But I think that writers in that season were still leading toward Dawson and Joey rather than Pacey and Joey.
Just think about the 100th episode when Pacey tells Joey that Dawson always wins in the end etc.
I do believe that writers were showing this jealousy from Joey's part because they wanted to prove that no matter how much she could love another guy she couldn't be with him completely because he wasn't Dawson,her soul mate.
After the series finale I guess that everyone could read every action in a different way,but we all know that the finale was a last minute decision made most of all for the audience.
So I can't help but think that writers had a certain plan in their mind while they were writing those scenes.
I think that those words said by Tom Kapinos could explain my pov better:

Quote:
"Well, my feelings are this, and this is just one writer's opinion, but to me the show is about Dawson and Joey and it's about these two people who meet really young, and they are sort of meant to be. They are soulmates, but life gets in the way, and it's impossible when you're that young to sustain a relationship like that. So each person has to go off and have other relationships that are positive and real and important. I think Dawson and Joey ultimately... I would like to think they would make their way back to each other, but in the meantime they have all these other relationships to explore."
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Old 07-21-2005, 01:24 PM
  #18
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I dont disagree that they injected some Dawson and Joey in here and there because they were not finished with them in the series and didnt want the audience to forget about them especially towards the end of the season when they were obviously headed towards a DJ finale, it was obvious when Pacey and Joey got together that it wasnt the last go-round for Dawson and Joey however I dont think that means that throughout season 4 Joey was secretly pining for Dawson while he was with Gretchen which is what I feel like people imply when they comment on the few times Joey has shown some jealousy or insecurity. They simply showed her adjusting to no longer being the number one in Dawsons life anymore, which is a really selfish thing, and thats really all I think it was at the time. I dont think it was meant to say that they'll always go back to each other becuase in the end, well that didnt happen, thats simply Tom Kapinos' personal opinion which is why, in my opinion, when the show was his in season 5, it was a mess.
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Old 07-21-2005, 01:51 PM
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I don't think that Joey was pining after him but I think that Joey couldn't get him out of her mind completely. I don't know if you get what I'm saying because this is clear in my head but I fail the most of the times when I try to explain it.
And I do think that it was supposed to show that Dawson and Joey were sort of meant to be though. Yes.
Since it wasn't just Tom Kapinos who said that but Berlanti,Fircke and many others. And we all know quite well why it didn't happen in the end I guess.
I agree anyhow that season 5 wasn't perfect. Not so much for DJ that to me was handled quite well but because of all the other things : the PJ amnesya in primis.
But season 6 was much worse to me. A complete mess from the beginning 'till the end.
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Old 07-21-2005, 04:34 PM
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You know what though the situation joey was in wouldnt of been so awkward in the first place if joey dint put herself in the position where she had to lie about it... if she wanted dawson to know about she should of told him if not dont.... this was just messed up situation that shouldnt have been a problem to begin with.
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Old 07-21-2005, 09:58 PM
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You know for the most unpopular kids in Capeside High, it's funny that scholar Joey and slacker Pacey would be Class Couple.

Only on TV, I guess.

What a joke!
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Old 07-22-2005, 04:38 AM
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My thoughts exactly, Ken. When I watched I was like 'wait a minute, aren't they the underdogs of Capeside? How could they suddenly become the class couple?'
Well, like you said... it's television!
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Old 07-22-2005, 08:10 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lor-baby
I don't think that Joey was pining after him but I think that Joey couldn't get him out of her mind completely. I don't know if you get what I'm saying because this is clear in my head but I fail the most of the times when I try to explain it.
And I do think that it was supposed to show that Dawson and Joey were sort of meant to be though. Yes.
Since it wasn't just Tom Kapinos who said that but Berlanti,Fircke and many others. And we all know quite well why it didn't happen in the end I guess.

I really dont think we all know why a DJ ending didnt happen and have a feeling that you and I would differ in our opinions of why it didnt happen in the end but the fact is that it didnt happen so it doesnt matter which writer said he wanted it to, the fact of the matter is Dawson and Joey ending up together was never promised or implicitly stated. This is really the reason why I feel like so many Dawson and Joey fans were SO devastated when Dawson and Joey didnt end the series together because they took things such as Joey showing sporatic moments of insecurity over Dawsons short lived season 4 girlfriend to mean that Dawson and Joey were meant to be. It's not factual and sort of a stretch however, to each his own, if that's how people want to take it, even though Dawson and Joey never truly got together post season 2, then that's fine but I do think it's a large reason why so many people were so disappointed with the finale because they built themselves up into believeing that these little things were promises or signs from the writers when nothing was ever really promised. I do think that the writer dropped hints here and there but only to keep both fanbases watching for as long as possible not to say "This glance or line is in here to show that DJ are soulmates". It was to string people along, and it worked like a charm.

Back on track, like I said before, I thought Mind Games was a good episode and yes it was odd that Pacey and Joey got class couple being that they were supposedly outcasts and all but hey, it's Pacey and Joey, right?
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Old 07-22-2005, 08:58 AM
  #24
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word sugz. If the writers were so intent on a DJ ending, why in the 100 episode did Dawson tell Oliver that he doesn't even know how it's going to end between him and Joey

I found a writer who said PJ were meant to be together. It probably got erased at *******
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Old 07-22-2005, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hshapir2
. If the writers were so intent on a DJ ending, why in the 100 episode did Dawson tell Oliver that he doesn't even know how it's going to end between him and Joey
But told the story to Oilver prompting him to drive to Florida to tell her he loved her. Seems like he knew deep down maybe but after what happened in the top if season 5 he still had to wonder.
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Old 07-22-2005, 01:30 PM
  #26
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I think Dawson/Joey got the more permenant ending, and I'm surprised so many DJers weren't a fan of it. P/J could have broken up 2 years later, but Dawson and her will always be soulmates. If it was left with DJ together, we would have felt like it wasn't going to last, that something was going to get in the way.
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Old 07-22-2005, 04:28 PM
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That is a very good point Ken. They did get a forever type of thing.
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Old 07-23-2005, 04:42 AM
  #28
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I embrace that positivity Ken. I'm able to handle the finale with a similiar mindest.
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Old 07-23-2005, 02:24 PM
  #29
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I think the episode was good. Love the cafeteria´s scene. Well, I love every ep where PJ are together.
I tend to believe Joey´s comments towards Gretchen and Dawson were just friendship jealousy . Another girl was trying to ocupy her place in Dawsons life. Or at least that ´s what she was feeling. However, her feelings has nothing to do with love or she wanting to be with him. No matter what the final was, the reading here is the same.

The question is Do the writers play with both fanbases? Of course. The thing is, they built PJ so lovable that when they tried to came to the old basic of the show, it was too late. Pj chemistry was stronger.
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Old 07-23-2005, 04:10 PM
  #30
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That's initially what I felt when it was over, and I was so shocked that people were so angry that DJ didn't get together. There's no finality to that, because in a relationship, they are doomed to make the same mistakes. If it was left with Dawson and Joey together, that wouldn't give me solace in knowing they remained together. But, it made sense for her to end up with Pacey. It was her longest relationship, the spark/chemistry was still there, and it's not necessarily a final ending for them. Anything can happen, and in the end, Dawson is her soulmate.
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