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Old 07-02-2005, 03:54 PM
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If you have a boyfriend who has those gestures. Who is observant and takes care of you in every way (from the smallest things to the obvious) wouldn't that be sweet and loving?
I think so.
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Old 07-02-2005, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Sugz
I dont think it's unrealistic that a girl who is obviously in love and with a guy for nine months alone in a snow surrounded fire lit cabin would finally let go and realize that she was ready to commit the physical act of love. The whole point of the episode was that she was scared of something and whether that something was Dawson, sex itself or the future none of it was enough to override the feeling that she really wanted to do it and with her previous actions in the episode (the condom incident) I dont think that it is odd that she felt the need to be aggressive (bad word to use I think, more like romantic) with pacey to convince him that she was indeed ready.

Personally I dont feel that any DJer wouldever feel like Joey was ready to have sex with Pacey nor have I ever seen one admit it was realistic but it certainly was, class trip or not, it wasnt the setting it was the person for Joey. I dont see a single thing that was unrealistic about that scene whatsoever, in fact I think it's unrealistic for two people in lvoe to NOT capitalize on that situation sexually.

And like I said before, how anyone can call Joeys speech to Pacey eye roll worthy is beyond me, her message was loud and clear, it was the little things that Pacey did for her that made her love him so much, to make fun of or downplay that message is pure unadulterated jealousy. However had Dawson been in Paceys shoes Dawson fans wouldve eaten it up and Pacey fans probably wouldve made fun of it so to each their own. But I still have never heard a valid reason as to why that speech was in any way anything BUT romantic unless you just look at it on the surface and all you can say it "napkins". Very deep.
Well, I think that you're being unfair. Just because I shipped D/J doesn't mean that I didn't think that Joey was ready to have sex with Pacey. She was older and in a loving relationship, that much is known. If it hadn't have been Pacey then it certainly would have been someone else, so what do I care?

I just don't think that it is characteristic of a virgin to suddenly be so assertive and suddenly show no signs of apprehension (especially when the other partner is more experienced). It didn't seem realistic to me that she was making a huge decision in her life without being even remotely scared.

Oh and here we go about the speech. I knew I would touch a nerve as soon as I wrote it. It wasn't so much the things that she said, but as the context it was in. Here they were again in Season 4 building up Pacey like he was some perfect person because he got napkins or carried bags. So what? Chivalry isn't dead, despite what some might say. He was just being a gentleman. So do a lot of guys. Dawson acted like a gentleman around Joey, bringing her flowers and respecting her decision to wait for sex. I just thought they were trying to force that Pacey was better than Dawson and I really didn't think that he was. That's why I think it was eye-roll worthy. It was like "Show Me Love" when I had to pick my eyes up outta my floor because I rolled them straight outta my head. I mean sure Pacey and Dawson are different, but do I buy for a second that one is better than the other: no. I just don't buy it.
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Old 07-02-2005, 07:22 PM
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It didn't seem realistic to me that she was making a huge decision in her life without being even remotely scared. Well, maybe unrealistic isn't the word. Maybe careless?
She waited 9 months to have sex with her boyfriend. I don't see that as careless.
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Old 07-02-2005, 07:29 PM
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I'm talking about in that moment, not in the grand scheme of things. It's just (and I'm forgetting careless [bad word choice] and reverting back to unrealistic here) that why would they build up her being scared and then at the end have her not show any signs of it whatsoever. Then it magically comes back the next morning. Mmhmm.
Bottom line: It's not the P/J sex that I had a problem with, it was the scene.
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Old 07-02-2005, 07:33 PM
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Well, DC wasn't big on realism. And something bad always has to happen after the girls had sex on dc! The guys could have sex and nothing bad happens.
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Old 07-02-2005, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by eatyourgreens

Oh and here we go about the speech. I knew I would touch a nerve as soon as I wrote it. It wasn't so much the things that she said, but as the context it was in. Here they were again in Season 4 building up Pacey like he was some perfect person because he got napkins or carried bags. So what? Chivalry isn't dead, despite what some might say. He was just being a gentleman. So do a lot of guys. Dawson acted like a gentleman around Joey, bringing her flowers and respecting her decision to wait for sex. I just thought they were trying to force that Pacey was better than Dawson and I really didn't think that he was. That's why I think it was eye-roll worthy. It was like "Show Me Love" when I had to pick my eyes up outta my floor because I rolled them straight outta my head. I mean sure Pacey and Dawson are different, but do I buy for a second that one is better than the other: no. I just don't buy it.
Who says Pacey is better than Dawson? No one is better than the other, I think. And the writers did not make it seem that way either, to me. They are both different yea, and will do different things that will make them a gentlemen. Just as you say Dawson gave flowers among other things and Pacey did the things that Joey mentioned and more (I can't go through now). But we are not talking about what Dawson did that was perfect or what not, this is only about this episode and its only showing what Pacey is doing and does for his girlfriend. And also what matters is that Joey thinks that what pacey does for her are meaningful and caring. Same thing goes for the flowers Dawson gave her in their first date. It made her feel girly or all kinds of cute. And it was nice of Dawson to respect her decision to wait for sex, as you said (even though they really haven't discussed in depth about sex when together in the seasons other than Joey mentioning a few times that she wanted her first to be with Dawson so did Dawson before and after they broke up during season 1 or/and 2. But tell me if I'm wrong with proof, ok? I don't think the writers were trying to force Pacey as the better man. Its just that it was Paceys turn to show what he is made of because we have already seen Dawson's. It can't always be about him, you know.
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Old 07-02-2005, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jopace1970
Well, DC wasn't big on realism. And something bad always has to happen after the girls had sex on dc! The guys could have sex and nothing bad happens.
Good point. Didn't think about it that way.

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Originally Posted by bebe84
Who says Pacey is better than Dawson? No one is better than the other, I think. And the writers did not make it seem that way either, to me. They are both different yea, and will do different things that will make them a gentlemen. Just as you say Dawson gave flowers among other things and Pacey did the things that Joey mentioned and more (I can't go through now). But we are not talking about what Dawson did that was perfect or what not, this is only about this episode and its only showing what Pacey is doing and does for his girlfriend. And also what matters is that Joey thinks that what pacey does for her are meaningful and caring. Same thing goes for the flowers Dawson gave her in their first date. It made her feel girly or all kinds of cute. And it was nice of Dawson to respect her decision to wait for sex, as you said (even though they really haven't discussed in depth about sex when together in the seasons other than Joey mentioning a few times that she wanted her first to be with Dawson so did Dawson before and after they broke up during season 1 or/and 2. But tell me if I'm wrong with proof, ok? I don't think the writers were trying to force Pacey as the better man. Its just that it was Paceys turn to show what he is made of because we have already seen Dawson's. It can't always be about him, you know.
Hey Bebe. I think a lot of what you said above is correct, and we actually share the same viewpoints (well, except the little couple thing ) It just seemed that toward the end of S3 and through S4 that they were mentioning a lot of extra nice stuff about Pacey and having Dawson so bitter, that they wanted you to hate Dawson. Although many didn't really take this to heart, some did. It just seemed that they were begging me to support Pacey/Joey and make them the victims (more S3 here) when there really were none (well, maybe Dawson-because of the way that he found out).
The scene I was talking about in regards to Dawson/Joey was in S2, when they're in the rowboat talking about sex and Dawson says "The night is still young" and Joey said "So are we."
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Old 07-02-2005, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jopace1970
Well, DC wasn't big on realism. And something bad always has to happen after the girls had sex on dc! The guys could have sex and nothing bad happens.
True
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Old 07-02-2005, 08:05 PM
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S4 that they were mentioning a lot of extra nice stuff about Pacey and having Dawson so bitter, that they wanted you to hate Dawson.
I thought season 4 was "the era of Saint Dawson"

Pacey could get away with a lot more because of his natural charm. IMO, Dawson never had that.
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Old 07-02-2005, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jopace1970
I thought season 4 was "the era of Saint Dawson"

Pacey could get away with a lot more because of his natural charm. IMO, Dawson never had that.
"The Era of Saint Dawson"? I guess I can see that. 'Course they had some redeeming to do with his character after it's assassination in S3. I'm a guy, so was never charmed by Pacey, but I found him funny. I just identified with Dawson, because I'm a dreamer like him.
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Old 07-02-2005, 08:22 PM
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Hey, what's this Erin?! Dawson had oodles of charm, for me anyway.
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Old 07-02-2005, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jopace1970
I thought season 4 was "the era of Saint Dawson"

Pacey could get away with a lot more because of his natural charm. IMO, Dawson never had that.
Exactly. Pacey already has a natural charm that makes him, well, Pacey. This is not part of Dawson's personality. And I thought it was the opposite in S4 too. They showed Dawson more or less okay with p/j relationship (when he gave Joey a picture of her and pacey by the x-mas tree, when he worked with pacey to do the prank at school, when he told joey about paceys school problems.) Also with the issue of him and Mr. Brooks of his dealings with his parents and the Gretchen thing. Oh and when he gave joey the large amount of money that Mr. brooks left him for her to go to the college of her choice. (I forget what university or college it was)
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Old 07-02-2005, 08:28 PM
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To each his own Deb!



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I just identified with Dawson, because I'm a dreamer like him.
I've always love to watch and movies and am bit of a dreamer, but I could never relate to Dawson.
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Old 07-02-2005, 08:30 PM
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^ it's that genetic thing again Erin
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Old 07-02-2005, 08:37 PM
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^ So true Deb!
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