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Old 03-03-2005, 05:43 AM
  #106
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The impression given in True Love was that Joey was absolutely miserable with Dawson, and that she was only staying behind due to his ultimatum, and due to a sense of obligation that she had to him. Therefore, even then, Dawson was made out to be the bad guy, and even when he recognized that he had lost her, and he told her that he didn’t want to hold her back, telling her: “You’re free, you can do what you want,” the Dawson haters twisted his words to say that he was acting like he owned Joey, which is a complete lie, and it really angers me to this day that people thought that.
But obviously by True Love they'd made the decision to end the season with PJ that's why it played out the way it did. I doubt if they'd decided to have her stay with Dawson that they would have shown her crying on the dance floor because Pacey was leaving or shown her being miserable with Dawson. They probably would have shown her waxing lyrical about their history or admitting she didn't stop seeing Pacey just because of Dawson's ultimatum, but because deep down she still loved Dawson. Then Pacey would have sailed off on his own and Dawson and Joey would have been shown being happily ever after in Capeside. And Dawson hating aside, his 'your free speech' was clearly intended to be seen as an act of noble self sacrifice. Some of the audience just chose not to see it that way.

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Great post, Mr. Brightside, and I completely agree that Dawson's Creek became Joey's Creek after Season Three ended. Paradoxically, though, while the writers never quite let go of the Dawson and Joey saga throughout the years, they never really gave Dawson and Joey a chance, and by the end, they mocked their relationship and they showed it to be something negative and as something that was holding the both of them back, and I’ll never understand why they chose to do that.
That's true when it's all said and done that didn't give DJ a chance to be in a relationship, but even though for the most part alot of the audience seemed to see their relationship as ridiculous and highly dysfunctional clearly that didn't become a mantra for the writers until s6 when they clearly gave up on then. Before that, dubious writing decisions aside, like Mr. Brooke's friend's speech, we were supposed to see their relationship as special and sacred. And let's face it DJ's relationship wasn't the only one on the show to be treated poorly. Just look at what they did to PJ.The way they treated their relationship especially post sex, the decision to make their break up unnecessarily mean spirited just to facilitate Joey's return to Dawson by the end of the season followed by the season and a half of acting as if they barely even happened.. So the poor treatment wasn't exactly a one way street.

But to stay on topic. Even though I thought Jen's storyline was as dumb as box of rocks I thought she looked really pretty in this episode.
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Old 03-03-2005, 07:25 AM
  #107
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. Paradoxically, though, while the writers never quite let go of the Dawson and Joey saga throughout the years, they never really gave Dawson and Joey a chance, and by the end, they mocked their relationship and they showed it to be something negative and as something that was holding the both of them back, and I’ll never understand why they chose to do that.
word. I totally agree Mr. Brightside.

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Just look at what they did to PJ.The way they treated their relationship especially post sex, the decision to make their break up unnecessarily mean spirited just to facilitate Joey's return to Dawson by the end of the season followed by the season and a half of acting as if they barely even happened.. So the poor treatment wasn't exactly a one way street.
word to coldwater too. I think you both made great points. I think all fanbases have been screwed one way or the other. I think Pacey and Andie fans suffered too, Dawson and Jen fans, Pacey and Audrey fans, etc.
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Old 03-03-2005, 07:44 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by hshapir2
word. I totally agree Mr. Brightside.
Actually, I said that, not Mr. Brightside, but thanks for agreeing with me. I also agree that all the fanbases got screwed over by the writers over the years.
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Old 03-03-2005, 07:48 AM
  #109
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Season 5 I feel everyone D/J,P/J,D/Jen were screwed over. I agree the show never gave D/J a true chance and at the same time never let the ''saga'' go as well.
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Old 03-03-2005, 07:51 AM
  #110
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welcome Jerry D
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Old 03-03-2005, 09:32 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Coldwater
despite the fact that MW was a main actor on the show her character in s1 worked as more of a plot device used to force Joey and Dawson to realise they were meant to be. There was never any real danger that Dawson and Joey weren't going to get together, which wasn't the case towards the end of s3.
Very good point Coldwater. Did anyone really believe that Joey wouldn't get Dawson in the end?



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Originally Posted by Jerry D
What infuriated me then and what infuriates me now the most about Stolen Kisses is the notion that Dawson was presented as the “safe” choice for Joey, and that Pacey was the one that made her “feel alive,” and it equally incensed me that Joey would take the advice of Dawson’s flaky aunt, who she hardly knew, and who had left her husband for some flighty artist who “made her feel alive,” and apply it to her own life.
Aww, Joey couldn't help it if Pacey made her tingle in a way that Dawson didn't!
And I beg to differ that Joey hardly knew Aunt Gwen. Going there was something that D/J apparently did quite often and in Stolen Kisses it was Joey who explained all about Aunt Gwen and waxed lyrical about her. And what evidence was there that the husband was a 'some flighty artist?' Gwen fell in love with him, They were still together 2 years later when he died. Oooh, Jerry your hate for the triangle burns even brighter than you think! Lol.



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Originally Posted by Jerry D
First of all, why was Dawson the “safe,” meaning, in the context of that episode, the “dull and boring” choice? Joey never really gave her romantic relationship with Dawson a chance, so how did she know that being in a romantic relationship with him would be “safe?” I can understand and accept that Joey had fallen in love with Pacey, but why demean Dawson in the process, which is exactly what the writers did in this episode?
I don't know. I kind of see your point, and it can be viewed that way, but why does Pacey making Joey feel 'alive' have to equate with Dawson being boring? I don't think it has to. Why can't it just mean that Joey felt alive just because she had fallen for Pacey and Dawson wasn't a safe and boring choice becase he wasn't a choice at all! She didn't want him. He was her friend and that's all. I know Aunt Gwen was with her husband but she wasn't in love with him. What was it Will said?
[i]Will: Isn't it better to have a short time with somebody you really love than a lifetime with somebody who's basically your roommate?[/b]
By that time the feelings for Dawson just weren't there anymore for Joey.



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Originally Posted by Jerry D
To me, a good love triangle is one where both suitors for a certain character (in this case, Joey) are presented in a positive light,
Yes, but on celluloid doesn't one of the potential suitors always have a slight edge over the other? You always seem to root for one more than the other.



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Originally Posted by Jerry D
Dawson’s character was purposely destroyed and Pacey’s character was purposely built up with that “Heart of a Hero” advertising campaign to make Joey’s choice of Pacey the only choice, and as a result, Dawson’s character was vilified by a large segment of the viewing audience (at least by a large segment of the viewing audience that posted here )
Dawson has always had his haters. I know I went off him in S2 and actively began to dislike him from the beginning of S3, but I do admit that his behaviour from The Longest Day onwards in the latter part of S3 gained him a whole new fanbase of haters! I don't hate Dawson. never have, but it seems that any P/Jer who criticises him in any way is called a Dawson hater.

And that 'purposefully built up' thing you keep mentioning about Pacey and the 'Heart of a Hero' campaign, well I know it seemed unfair to you, but it's not far wrong, is it? Why? Because Pacey has pretty much always been like that. Pacey has always had a hero complex. We saw that from S1! And now I can bring in my often laboured point about character traits. Dawson fans complain Dawson's character was changed to make him into the bad guy and that Pacey was built up, but like I mentioned before Pacey has always had a hero complex - and Dawson has always had a mean, manipulative and arrogant streak. We saw that, too, time and time again from S1.



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Originally Posted by Jerry D
Michelle Williams did a wonderful job in making Jen’s character vulnerable and endearing in that season (and in the seasons to come). Jen was shown to be very patient with Dawson as he ardently tried to win her heart, and she was always nice to Joey, even though Joey was a complete bitch to her,
Oooh, Jerry don't get me started on how Joey was such a bitch to Jen in S1. It really irked me how passive and so nice Jen was in the face of Joey's continuing bitchiness and real meaness. I liked Joey but this part of her behaviour I hated. I just longed for Jen to give back as good as she got!



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Originally Posted by Mr Brightside
I mean ... hell, TRUE LOVE was basically the end of Dawson/Joey ... because she looked at him, not as a friend, or a lover, but as an obligation. That was obviously done ... to make the audience lead into a different direction ... and thus, changing the show's focus.
But it wasn't really the end of D/J, was it? Even though Dawson hadn't really been prominent in Joey's life from the beginning of S3, Dawson continued to reman a ghost in the P/J relationship and even more focus was put on D/J in S5. And to think they only dated for a couple of months, twice, e, plus one night and one day! Ahem!
But the focus of the main character did change. It pretty much became Pacey's Creek (personally, I think from S2) but definitely in S3 and from S4 it was Joey's Creek all the way, man!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Brightside
The finale was another example ... where it was fairly obvious what direction they were going to go in... the way they wrote the finale ... D/J did not have one semi-romantic scene ... those were given to Pacey & Joey with the restaurant scene, dancing, etc. It seems so forced ... and that's why I had problems with the final few seasons ... it didn't seem right.
Oh, I agree. The way KW wrote the finale it was obvious. Like you said there was nothing romantic in there for D/J. All the hints pointed to Pacey. It didn't stop most P/J fans, even us lot who were spoiled, from holding our breath as the camera panned across the sofa to see who she was sitting next too. We'd been burned too many times to trust the...what did we call them Jerry? TIIC? The Idiots In Charge? Something similar to that.
But I felt the finale DID gel with history. Why should Joey have ended up with a guy she could never properly commit to? A guy she only dated for a few months of her life? A guy she never kept in touch with? When you look back and see just how little time they really had for each other romantically despite this supposed special, transcedent bond, how they always stopped themselves from being together, always ended up hurting each other - why should they have ended up together? They couldn't even be proper friends when they weren't romantically involved.

That's why it made so much sense when KW said that he just couldn't see Dawson and Joey living day to day together because they were never able to sustain a relationshop together. Pacey and Joey did AND they were able to stay friends and whenever they'd been apart they always came together again with a sense of ease and comfort and affection that was just natural - just there. So KW had to change it to the couple that DID make sense.



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Originally Posted by Coolcat
I am sorry but I don't really appreciate someone speaking to me like I am stupid. I am 22 and I do understand all the words you use Jaycee and I do feel Pacey was calculating In Stolen Kisses and if you disagree that's just the way it is.
What's age got to do with it? And I do disagree that he was calculating which is the only word being disputed here. If you feel I'm talking to you as if you are stupid then that's unfortunate. It's certainly not the effect I was going for.

What I wanted to know was, if you know Pacey wasn't planning to kiss Joey then your argument about calculation doesn't hold up, does it?

And if you don't know what Pacey was planning but decide that he must have been planning something to get at Joey, with no supporting evidence, then you are making things up to support your view, aren't you?
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Old 03-03-2005, 10:44 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Jaycee
. Why should Joey have ended up with a guy she could never properly commit to?
And if you don't know what Pacey was planning but decide that he must have been planning something to get at Joey, with no supporting evidence, then you are making things up to support your view, aren't you?

Well, why should she of ended up with a guy she showed almost zero romantic feelings toward for a season and a half followed by a few weeks of her coming out of it saying ''Even When everything's Perfect being with you does not feel right?'' Love Bites Ruined anything with P/J romantic I think but the same could be said about 602. I could go on but I won't but I do kind of think she out grew both of them to an extent but her not ending up with one of them would have been a big disappointment I guess. The only the thing is according to the Stupin on the DVD he say's some scenes were shot when they thought D/J would end up together. he even goes on to say during the bed room scene ''still some attraction because at this point we still thought they would end up together'' Is Stupin lying?

''And if you don't know what Pacey was planning but decide that he must have been planning something to get at Joey, with no supporting evidence, then you are making things up to support your view, aren't you?''

Well no because Pacey admitted he could not get rid of his feelings for Joey so him even being there was enough for something to happen because he also said ''When you like someone proximity is a good thing''' He said he came to be with her. Now if Joey had not gone would he still of gone? I mean Aunt Gwen made it clear she had not scene Pacey for a long time so I take it he had not joined D/J for a very long time on one of these things.
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Old 03-03-2005, 10:49 AM
  #113
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THe problem with most of these arguments is that most of you are quoting lines ... and what were trying to get at is ... Dawson was villainized for the sake of P/J getting together. It was obviously forcefully written that way ... and while Pacey came off as the sweet guy, who would accept loss ... Dawson came off as kniving, ruthless ... and basically, his character was put through the rinse cycle ... not giving him a real chance to have it be an equal triangle ... where the outcome would have been harder, the Joey feeling obligated to be with him. Why couldn't both D/P been on the same level ... and making the choice harder ... why did Dawson have to be written down so Pacey could be written up? That's what I don't understand ... everything else being mentioned is entirely irrelevant to me.
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Old 03-03-2005, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Brightside
why did Dawson have to be written down so Pacey could be written up? That's what I don't understand ... .

I don't get it as well. All of this could of been done without making one a villain.
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Old 03-03-2005, 10:56 AM
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The only the thing is according to the Stupin on the DVD he say's some scenes were shot when they thought D/J would end up together. he even goes on to say during the bed room scene ''still some attraction because at this point we still thought they would end up together'' Is Stupin lying?
I think he meant 'written'. My guess is they filmed it that way to keep us guessing.
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Old 03-03-2005, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jopace1970
I think he meant 'written'. My guess is they filmed it that way to keep us guessing.
Not that there was much guessing ... and honestly, I listened to the Stupin commentaries ... does he know what he is talking about? He always sounds like he is confused.
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Old 03-03-2005, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Brightside
I listened to the Stupin commentaries ... does he know what he is talking about? He always sounds like he is confused.

I have to agree with this so maybe that is the case.
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Old 03-03-2005, 11:12 AM
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Yes he always sounds a bit confused or he's talking about the bugs. LOL.

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Not that there was much guessing
So true.
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Old 03-03-2005, 11:33 AM
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Is Stupin lying?
Lying about what? But COOLCAT and Mr. Brightside, did you guys even listen to the rest of the commentary? That pretty much explains why everything happened and why PJ ended up together. Yes, I'll give you that Paul Stupin, solo, gives hour long commentary's on Joshua Jackson's hair, but Kevin Williamson, you're Dawson's Creek GOD who gave you guys your beloved first two seasons of Dawson's Creek, is THE reason why PJ ended up together and he's the one who said DJ didn't seem right HENCE the rewrite and why some scenes on the extended version seem out of place cuz they had already filmed the first half when it was initially DJ ending. I think they had an "act first, think later" attitude regarding the Series Finale and when they actually sat down and thought about what was going to happen and who was going to end up together, it made NO sense for DJ to end up together, when they act and treat each other like they are 15.

Honestly, I don't even know what were are talking about anymore and what I am trying to prove! This is craaaazy! So if this has NOTHING to do what we are arguing, I apologize, but I hope for some, it is entertaining

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why did Dawson have to be written down so Pacey could be written up?
It's like Jaycee said, Pacey has ALWAYS had a hero complex and Dawson has always been manipulative, so there was no writting up or down of a character because these had been their traits since the beginning.
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Old 03-03-2005, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by TrueLovePJer
Lying about what? But COOLCAT and Mr. Brightside, did you guys even listen to the rest of the commentary? Kevin Williamson, you're Dawson's Creek GOD who gave you guys your beloved first two seasons of Dawson's Creek, is THE reason why PJ ended up together and he's the one who said DJ didn't seem right HENCE the rewrite and why some scenes on the extended version seem out of place cuz they had already filmed the first half when it was initially DJ ending.


KW makes it very clear his bigger problem was with Pacey and Andie with the way he went on and on more then just 1 time. He said he wanted to ''Satisfy'' everyone (Yeah right) and that was his view of the best way. With Stupin I meant lying about the scene being shot with the intention of D/J ending up together. He said he called Stupin up and asked 'Is this the way to do it'' and Stupin say's ''We changed our minds'' Our means both so it really was not just KW alone.
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