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Old 03-02-2005, 11:24 AM
  #91
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Oh, I agree, in Season One Jen did jerk Dawson around a bit, and it was true that she seemed to want him back after she saw that he was interested in Joey, and in Season Two, I thought it was wrong for her to come on to Dawson when he was in a romantic relationship with Joey, but somehow, through it all, I never disliked Jen, and I always found her character to be very vulnerable and sweet.

I thought that one of the greatest exchanges about that whole thing came in Season One's Pretty Woman between Jen and Pacey:

Pacey: It looks like Prince Charming's found the owner of that glass slipper.

Jen: If you have a point I wish you'd get to it.

Pacey: C'mon Jen. I mean it's pretty obvious you’re missing the undivided attention of our friend Dawson. Maybe feeling a little dumper's remorse?

Jen: You're way off, alright?

Pacey: Tell me is it the possibility of losing him to someone else that suddenly makes him seem so attractive?

Jen: You really think that I am that shallow, huh?

Pacey: No. I think you're that human.

I agree though that in Season One, it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that Dawson and Joey would find their way to one another, so Jen represented more of a diversion for Dawson until he realized his feelings for Joey, but Pacey became the first real, and as it turned out, permanent threat to Dawson and Joey getting together, and there was really no contest between what Joey felt for Dawson and what she felt for Pacey after Season Three ended.
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Old 03-02-2005, 11:30 AM
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but Pacey became the first real, and as it turned out, permanent threat to Dawson and Joey getting together, and there was really no contest between what Joey felt for Dawson and what she felt for Pacey after Season Three ended.
This is true.
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Old 03-02-2005, 02:20 PM
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I think the point CoolCat, Jerry, and I were trying to make was ... they never made the triangle fair. It seemed that the producers knew who they wanted her to end up with ... made Dawson become "the villain" and Pacey "the hero". I would have liked to seen both of them, fairly written, literally give Joey bigger dilemma then ... hmm, videos w/ dawson over the summer, or sailing to the keys with Pacey? I mean ... come on! That was just ... a slap in the face to the watchers of DC, eliminated the element of surprise. We knew from the minute the words "Ask Me to Stay" were on the wall ... that she was gonna leave with him. It was just way too obvious, and I liked that she went ... but Dawson didn't get a chance to give her something. The dilemma was leave her past for her future ... but since Joey/Dawson never got a fair chance ... it was a fairly simple decision ... very anti-climactic.

That was basically the point I was getting at. And I still feel Pacey was just as clculating as Dawson ... Dawson moreso, but still ... Pacey did some things ... that look like he's giving up ... but he knew what he was doing. And him walking out on the D/J karaoke song ... fairly obvious.
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Old 03-02-2005, 02:50 PM
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I think the point CoolCat, Jerry, and I were trying to make was ... they never made the triangle fair. It seemed that the producers knew who they wanted her to end up with
Well obviously the producers knew who they wanted her to end up with. It just seems logical in ALL love triangles that one character is going to come up on top and that is who the chooser will ultimately pick. They have to have some reason to why he or she chooses a particular person, unless her choice was merely a a product of "Eenie Meenie Minie Mo" and it was by chance. Either it is a grand romantic gesture or a simple declaration of love, the person who the chooser picks is going to be due to good reason. Like in Season 1, the producers knew Dawson was going to end up with Joey. Dawson had good reason, just like Joey did in Season 3.

I agree to some degree that they did make the triangle unfair. They did make Dawson act like an ass, but who are we to say that a person wouldn't act like that when he realizes that the girl he feels he has some claim on, falls for his best friend. Maybe that's how people really act. But he did have history on his side, so it wasn't completely unfair. But when all is said and done, that's just how it was played out and there's nothing we can do about it now.
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Old 03-02-2005, 03:47 PM
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I completely agree that the producers knew who they wanted Joey to end up with at the end of Season Three, just like they knew who they wanted Dawson to end up with at the end of Season One, but they didn’t destroy Jen’s character to facilitate a Dawson and Joey pairing at the end of Season One like they destroyed Dawson’s character to facilitate a Pacey and Joey pairing at the end of Season Three. As a Dawson fan, I’ll always find that grossly unfair, but like you said TrueLovePJer, that's just how it was played out and there's nothing we can do about it now, but I still reserve my right to complain about it!
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Old 03-02-2005, 04:19 PM
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I think the point CoolCat, Jerry, and I were trying to make was ... they never made the triangle fair. It seemed that the producers knew who they wanted her to end up with ... made Dawson become "the villain" and Pacey "the hero".
But by all accounts they didn't make the decision about who Joey was going to end up with until the final episode of the season was written and even after that according to PS their relationship was only supposed to be short lived so I don't really see what incentive the writers were supposed to have in deliberately making Dawson, the villain. I mean he wasn't just some character. He was one half of their chosen couple and it wasn't as if they planned to move on from them at that point. And since the s1 triangle was brought up. That was far more scewered than the s3 one because the audience was never left under the illusion that Jen stood a chance in that one.

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I would have liked to seen both of them, fairly written, literally give Joey bigger dilemma then ... hmm, videos w/ dawson over the summer, or sailing to the keys with Pacey?
But that wasn't really her dilemma was it.

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It was just way too obvious, and I liked that she went ... but Dawson didn't get a chance to give her something. The dilemma was leave her past for her future ... but since Joey/Dawson never got a fair chance ... it was a fairly simple decision ... very anti-climactic.
But then conversely look at the big deal they made of their history and their bond, putting it on such a pedastal to such a degree that the impression was left that anyone, in this case Pacey, was only setting themselves up for a world of hurt if they tried to come between it. You even have both Andie and Doug, to a lesser degree, pointing out that fact to him.. They made it seem as if it was inconceivable that Joey could possible fall in love with anyone and have it mean more than or even as much as what she shared with Dawson.And this attitude didn't last just for the last few episodes of s3. It dragged on right through s4 and beyond. So why exactly would Dawson need to be seen making the grand romantic gesture when he already had that in his favour. If anything it was Pacey, who needed all the gestures he could get because the way the writing made it seem he was already starting in the hole because they didn't have a special history or bond he could call on to prove his worth.

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Old 03-02-2005, 05:15 PM
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[QUOTE=coldwater1010]But by all accounts they didn't make the decision about who Joey was going to end up with until the final episode of the season was written
QUOTE]


But Honestly how could they expect to put Joey with Dawson in True Love with the way they had Dawson act?
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Old 03-02-2005, 05:26 PM
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but they didn’t destroy Jen’s character to facilitate a Dawson and Joey pairing at the end of Season One
Yeah, but they used her in Season 2 to cause drama. Jen did some shi itty things in Season 2, like coldwater mentioned, that were very similar to Dawson's actions in Season 3, but people were more forgiving of Jen than they were of Dawson.

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Jen: I want him back.

Abby: God, why?

Jen: 'Cause I love him.

Abby: Look, that's just the booze talking.

Jen: No, I'm serious. I love him and I want him back.

Abby: Alright. Then we're going to get him back for you.
Quote:
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Dawson: I can't let her go.

Jen: Well what else can you do?

Dawson: Fight. You can fight for what you want.
Both were fully aware that the other person was in love with someone else, but instead, because of their own selfish needs and wants, tryed to get back what they lost. The only difference in these two scenarios was Jen was able to redeem herself and Dawson never fully recovered until the Series Finale (imo).

And you know what I just realized...the irony that BOTH Dawson and Andie's characters, the first loves of Joey and Pacey, lost some serious street cred, and as a result, both characters never fully recovered. I never noticed that. Wow.

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But then conversely look at the big deal they made of their history and their bond, putting it on such a pedastal to such a degree that the impression was left that anyone, in this case Pacey, was only setting themselves up for a world of hurt if they tried to come between it. You even have both Andie and Doug, to a lesser degree, pointing out that fact to him.. They made it seem as if it was inconceivable that Joey could possible fall in love with anyone and have it mean more than or even as much as what she shared with Dawson.And this attitude didn't last just for the last few episodes of s3. It dragged on right through s4 and beyond. So why exactly would Dawson need to be seen making the grand romantic gesture when he already had that in his favour. If anything it was Pacey, who needed all the gestures he could get because the way the writing made it seem he was already starting in the hole because they didn't have a special history or bond he could call on to prove his worth.
I totally agree coldwater! If anyone had to prove his worth, it was Pacey. He was up against THE Dawson Leery. It's tough to actively pursue a girl when someone else has already declared her their soulmate don't you think?
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Old 03-02-2005, 05:39 PM
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But Honestly how could they expect to put Joey with Dawson in True Love with the way they had Dawson act?
Well why not? It's not as if they gave the impression they felt he'd done anything really wrong and his behaviour could all be put down, if need be to his sense of betrayal at finding out that his best friend and his best girl had gotten together, which I think is pretty much what they did anyway. Why couldn't they have felt that the audience would sympathise with Dawson and cut him some slack for his behaviour because maybe they'd understand how much it would hurt to find out something like that. And isn't it supposed to be some unwritten rule that a friend isn't allowed to date another's ex especially when there might still be feelings involved so maybe they felt Pacey's perceived wrong would balance out Dawson's wrongs. So it's not out of the realms of possibility that they felt the audience wouldn't judge him too harshly, but that they wound up overestimating the audience's tolerance, not to mention the appeal of PJ getting together. After all I doubt they really expected that relationship to eclipse the soulmates.
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Old 03-02-2005, 05:51 PM
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After all I doubt they really expected that relationship to eclipse the soulmates.
Oh but it did Hence why the focus was more on Pacey and Joey (what we were talking about earlier) and their relationship. Yeahh full circle!
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Old 03-02-2005, 08:19 PM
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[QUOTE=TrueLovePJer] The only difference in these two scenarios was Jen was able to redeem herself and Dawson never fully recovered until the Series Finale (imo).
QUOTE]

IMO though I think in season 4 he redeemed himself. I do have to give the writers credit for Dawson in season 4 because I do feel they did a good job at repairing the damage they did to his character in season 3.

''Well why not? It's not as if they gave the impression they felt he'd done anything really wrong and his behaviour could all be put down, ''

ColdWater because as I said it would have looked like Dawson forced her to stay with the way they portrayed things. It would not of been a choice really. Maybe the writers felt the way like you said but I don't see how with them having Dawson give Joey that ultimatum.
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Old 03-02-2005, 09:17 PM
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The impression given in True Love was that Joey was absolutely miserable with Dawson, and that she was only staying behind due to his ultimatum, and due to a sense of obligation that she had to him. Therefore, even then, Dawson was made out to be the bad guy, and even when he recognized that he had lost her, and he told her that he didn’t want to hold her back, telling her: “You’re free, you can do what you want,” the Dawson haters twisted his words to say that he was acting like he owned Joey, which is a complete lie, and it really angers me to this day that people thought that. Therefore, I completely agree with COOLCAT that if Joey had stayed with Dawson, it wouldn’t have been a choice at all, and he would have been even more vilified than he already was.
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Old 03-02-2005, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Jerry D
Therefore, I completely agree with COOLCAT that if Joey had stayed with Dawson, it wouldn’t have been a choice at all, and he would have been even more vilified than he already was.
Right on, Jerry! That is definetly true. And everyone can quote lines forever, it just seems to prove the point more. Watch the final 6 episodes of S3 ... notice the character change ... it was done to show Dawson was "obligation" and Pacey was "opportunity" ... do you guys not understand this? I mean ... hell, TRUE LOVE was basically the end of Dawson/Joey ... because she looked at him, not as a friend, or a lover, but as an obligation. That was obviously done ... to make the audience lead into a different direction ... and thus, changing the show's focus. S3 was the end of "Dawson's Creek" ... after that, he was just a supporting character given a random storyline (AI BROOKS; GRETCHEN) to make his character move along ... and then give more attention to P/J - but especially Joey.
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Old 03-02-2005, 10:11 PM
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Great post, Mr. Brightside, and I completely agree that Dawson's Creek became Joey's Creek after Season Three ended. Paradoxically, though, while the writers never quite let go of the Dawson and Joey saga throughout the years, they never really gave Dawson and Joey a chance, and by the end, they mocked their relationship and they showed it to be something negative and as something that was holding the both of them back, and I’ll never understand why they chose to do that.
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Old 03-02-2005, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jerry D
and by the end, they mocked their relationship and they showed it to be something negative and as something that was holding the both of them back, and I’ll never understand why they chose to do that.
Neither will I. It just demeaned the chemistry and history they had been building up throughout the years ... to then write it down, where they kept missing eachother ... they never got a chance to be a couple. I don't get why he was her "first stand" ... in S6. And how they always seemed to make it like ... guys, just get over each other. The finale was another example ... where it was fairly obvious what direction they were going to go in ... why advertise it as Joey finally makes her decision ... she made that decision a long time ago ... by then, the way they wrote the finale ... D/J did not have one semi-romantic scene ... those were given to Pacey & Joey with the restaurant scene, dancing, etc. It seems so forced ... and that's why I had problems with the final few seasons ... it didn't seem right. And I loved the finale ... it was perfect, and I wouldn't change it, because ... by then, the show had gone into that different mindset ... and a D/J pairing would have never happened ... it would have seemed illogical ...
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