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Old 03-02-2005, 06:35 AM
  #76
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Wow! Great post Jaycee! I agree with everything you said
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Old 03-02-2005, 07:57 AM
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You know what I am sorry but I don't really appreciate someone speaking to me like I am stupid. I am 22 and I do understand all the words you use Jaycee and I do feel Pacey was calculating In Stolen Kisses and if you disagree that's just the way it is.
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Old 03-02-2005, 09:08 AM
  #78
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Jaycee, despite our different points of view, I’m glad that you still come here to debate. I still stand by my previous statement that Pacey did some calculating things in Stolen Kisses. Granted, he wasn’t nearly as calculating as Dawson was in The Anti-Prom, but I still say that both guys did some calculating things to win the heart of the girl that they loved.

What infuriated me then and what infuriates me now the most about Stolen Kisses is the notion that Dawson was presented as the “safe” choice for Joey, and that Pacey was the one that made her “feel alive,” and it equally incensed me that Joey would take the advice of Dawson’s flaky aunt, who she hardly knew, and who had left her husband for some flighty artist who “made her feel alive,” and apply it to her own life.

First of all, why was Dawson the “safe,” meaning, in the context of that episode, the “dull and boring” choice? Joey never really gave her romantic relationship with Dawson a chance, so how did she know that being in a romantic relationship with him would be “safe?” I can understand and accept that Joey had fallen in love with Pacey, but why demean Dawson in the process, which is exactly what the writers did in this episode?

I think that this episode started the destruction of Dawson’s character that continued in the subsequent episodes of this season. To me, a good love triangle is one where both suitors for a certain character (in this case, Joey) are presented in a positive light, so that Joey would be torn between Dawson and Pacey, and the audience would also be torn between who they wanted her to be with, but in the case of the Season Three Love Triangle, Dawson’s character was purposely destroyed and Pacey’s character was purposely built up with that “Heart of a Hero” advertising campaign to make Joey’s choice of Pacey the only choice, and as a result, Dawson’s character was vilified by a large segment of the viewing audience (at least by a large segment of the viewing audience that posted here ) and his character never really recovered from that destruction in many ways.

That, my friends, is why I hate the Season Three Love Triangle.
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Old 03-02-2005, 09:25 AM
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Jerry I totally agree with you on everything you said. Your right ... Dawson was safe, and Pacey was "alive" ... fairly obvious the direction they were going in. Making Dawson the enemy ... not needed. They were both two nice guys ... and to deman one of them, and build up another ... it seemed so forced. Seeing Dawson become a supporting role the year after and P/J the main focus ... I hated that. I thought that the triangle shoved the show in a horrible direction, taking focus off of what it should have stayed on. Dawson's journey became a side story ... and Joey took center stage ... it wasn't the way to go. I never really got over that. I rewatched S4 and ya know ... it wasn't the show I grew to love ... it was different. It felt like a spin-off, as well as S3.

Jerry's right ... if the characters were left as is ... then the audience would have been torn and the decision wouldn't have been as easy. Also ... if Joey gave Dawson a chance ... then maybe we would have had more to fight for.

And yeah ... pacey was just as calculating as Dawson ... they both played on her emotions ... Pacey won. Nough said. All you P/Jers can argue different ... I personally liked both couples ... so, I'm not leading in one direction.
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Old 03-02-2005, 09:29 AM
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You know what thank God for you Jerry because at least I know one person feels the same way I do about this stuff and I agree with Mr Brightside as well. Totally agree about the love triangle I wish it was handled different.
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Old 03-02-2005, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by COOLCAT200
You know what thank God for you Jerry because at least I know one person feels the same way I do about this stuff and I agree with Mr Brightside as well.
I got your back.
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Old 03-02-2005, 09:42 AM
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Seeing Dawson become a supporting role the year after and P/J the main focus
I just think the popularity of PJ was evident and undeniable and the producers, writers, and network were aware of this, so that's why Pacey and Joey became the main focus.

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then the audience would have been torn and the decision wouldn't have been as easy.
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and the audience would also be torn between who they wanted her to be with
Clearly the audience was torn because there were people like you guys, COOLCAT, Jerry D, and Mr. Brightside, who were rooting for Dawson. So therefore, the love triangle served its purpose by dividing the audience by who they felt Joey should choose. All triangles are meant to cause drama and cause an unbalance in the fan base. It's the basic principles of a love triangle if you ask me.
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Old 03-02-2005, 09:44 AM
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It's the basic principles of a love triangle if you ask me.
I agree TrueLovePJer.
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Old 03-02-2005, 09:45 AM
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Sorry for the double post, but my last part didn't show up....

So in short, there is no good approach to any sort of love triangle.
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Old 03-02-2005, 09:48 AM
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Oh cool I didn't break the rules ...oh wait now I am!

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I agree TrueLovePJer.
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Old 03-02-2005, 10:14 AM
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So in short, there is no good approach to any sort of love triangle.
I disagree.I think the problem with the triangle wasn't the concept, it was the execution. I think the 'triangle' as a dramatic tool can be effective if done well and without the excessive level of melodrama that this show felt the need to exercise or devisiveness.Dawson didn't need to be as big of an ass as he was to convey how hurt he was, Joey didn't need to be as big of a wimp as she was to show how important her friendship with Dawson was to her. But even worst than that they dragged it on too long. Once s3 ended they should have moved everyone on from it and stat and by moving everyone one on I don't mean in the half hearted way they did in season 4 or the even more ridiculous 'by the way the last two seasons didn'treally happen' way they did in s5.
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Old 03-02-2005, 10:15 AM
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I’ve got your back too, Eric.

Actually, I believe there is a good approach to any sort of love triangle. I think that the Season One Love Triangle between Dawson, Joey, and Jen was handled in a much better way than the Season Three Love Triangle between Dawson, Pacey, and Joey. In Season One, Jen was presented as a very sweet and appealing character, and you could completely understand why Dawson would be so infatuated with her, and Joey was presented as the tough but vulnerable underdog who was secretly in love with her best friend, and while most of the audience, including me, was waiting for Dawson to “take off the blinders” and see what he had in Joey, and I was glad when he finally did, but I also liked and felt a great deal of sympathy for Jen in those final episodes, as she realized, too late, that she hadn’t really given her relationship with Dawson a chance, and by the time she realized that she loved Dawson, she had lost him to Joey.

Granted, Jen was vilified in certain circles as, and I quote, “the mini-skirted wedge between Dawson and Joey’s true feelings for one another,” but she was always presented in a positive light in Season One, and Michelle Williams did a wonderful job in making Jen’s character vulnerable and endearing in that season (and in the seasons to come). Jen was shown to be very patient with Dawson as he ardently tried to win her heart, and she was always nice to Joey, even though Joey was a complete bitch to her, so in that case, neither contender for Dawson’s heart was purposely put in a bad light like Dawson was purposely put in a bad light in Season Three.
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Old 03-02-2005, 10:50 AM
  #88
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Thanks Jerry and MR. Brightside. I admit I was torn but I was torn mostly with the way the show had Dawson act I mean him ending up with Joey in True Love just would not have been right. They made it so because with the way they had Dawson act it would have been more like he forced her to stay as opposed to it being her choice.
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Old 03-02-2005, 10:55 AM
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but she was always presented in a positive light in Season One, and Michelle Williams did a wonderful job in making Jen’s character vulnerable and endearing in that season (and in the seasons to come). Jen was shown to be very patient with Dawson as he ardently tried to win her heart, and she was always nice to Joey, even though Joey was a complete bitch to her, so in that case, neither contender for Dawson’s heart was purposely put in a bad light like Dawson was purposely put in a bad light in Season Three.
I agree with this up to a point because I do think she was also shown as someone who could have been seen as someone who tended to jerk Dawson around. Wanting him one moment then breaking up with him then wanting him back again when she realised he was interested in someone else and then in season 2 trying to come on to Dawson while he was still with Joey to try and break them up. So I think it's open to interpretation whether she was always shown in a positive light.

I also think the reason why the season 1 triangle was less devisive on this show than the s3 one wasn't just because Jen was so nice, but because despite the fact that MW was a main actor on the show her character in s1 worked as more of a plot device used to force Joey and Dawson to realise they were meant to be. There was never any real danger that Dawson and Joey weren't going to get together, which wasn't the case towards the end of s3.
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Old 03-02-2005, 11:20 AM
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I disagree.I think the problem with the triangle wasn't the concept, it was the execution.
Ok, that's fine, but I was talking about the general concept of love triangles and how they ultimately will cause problems no matter how much you sugar coat it.

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I do think she was also shown as someone who could have been seen as someone who tended to jerk Dawson around. Wanting him one moment then breaking up with him then wanting him back again when she realised he was interested in someone else and then in season 2 trying to come on to Dawson while he was still with Joey to try and break them up. So I think it's open to interpretation whether she was always shown in a positive light.
I agree. I also think the difference in Season 1 love triangle and Season 3 love triangle is Pacey and Dawson were put into competition with the fan base since the pilot (and both Kevin Williamson and Paul Stupin have acknowledged this on the commentary and were aware that some people would associate more with the "fun loving bad boy", while others would associate with "the dreamer"). And when Season 3 came along, there was more to base the characters on because of what was displayed on screen from the first two seasons, as oppose to Season 1 when we were suppose to just accept the situations given to us. And not to mention there was so much more at stake in the Season 3 love triangle. The Season 1 love triangle was an amatuer compared to Season 3. There was just so much more emotion involved and the kids were older, that the Season 1 love triangle was for babies and for people who don't even know what the word "love" means and for those who aren't even mature enough to handle what a real relationship consists of. So you really couldn't have done the Season 3 love triangle like Season 1.
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