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Old 02-25-2005, 09:17 AM
  #61
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COOLCAT, why must you take an obvious romantic gesture and leap of faith on Pacey's part and label it "calculating"? Have you not read anything that the other people have posted? That JOEY was the one who prompted him to do it cuz she said he was the one giving up on them. Pacey was packed and ready to go and it was JOEY who went and found him. People are so quick to judge Pacey on his actions, but a lot of the times, his reasons to act the way he did is because of something Joey said or did. For example...

In "A Cinderella Story", Joey gave Pacey the "look", so that's why he kissed her. And she even admits this to Bessie!

In "Stolen Kisses", Joey said it "made her feel alive", so how do you expect him not to kiss her?

In "True Love", you can tell by the expression on her face that she wants to get a rise out of him and see what he would say by stating that he's the one giving up on them. So in return he puts the message on the wall and tells her that he needs to know that she's not quite prepared to give up on him either.

And, like always, he puts the decision in her hands. Lets her make the decision for herself. A very "un-Dawson-like" thing to do.
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Old 02-25-2005, 09:42 AM
  #62
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Hi Jaycee! Yes, there’s still a little of the D/Jer left in me. After all these years, I still hate the way the Season Three Love Triangle went down, even though I later came to really like Pacey and Joey in Season Six, and I was glad that they ended up together. This is Season Three that we’re talking about though. The way that Pacey “got to Joey,” in Stolen Kisses, in my humble opinion, was when he walked out on Dawson and Joey singing in the barn, and he got exactly the reaction that he wanted from Joey, and I feel that he forced the issue with her. Sure he had been invited to Aunt Gwen’s, but he had initially refused to go, and he even admitted that he went to be near to Joey.

I know my arguments are lost in the midst of the Dawson hating and Pacey worshiping atmosphere here, but all I’m trying to say that both guys loved Joey, and they did what they could to win her heart. Yes, Dawson took things to an extreme, and he did some reprehensible things, especially in the boat race, but that only proves my long standing and undoubtedly unpopular theory that Dawson’s character was purposely destroyed at the end of Season Three, and Pacey’s character was purposely built up at the same time to make Joey’s choice of Pacey the only logical choice. I’ll always hate that the writers and producers chose to do that, and I’ll always hate the division in the fan base that came about as a result of that.

I don’t post here much anymore, one, because I’ve been sick and I’m recovering from a cancer treatment that I went through, but mostly because I feel that anyone who has even a modicum of sympathy towards Dawson is going to be maligned here. COOLCAT is sort of the voice in the wilderness here, because he supports Dawson and Joey and he’s willing to debate the vast majority of posters here who hate them, and I commend him for it, but I just don’t have the energy to debate these old issues anymore, at least not like I used to. I see the most popular thread here is the Anti Dawson and Joey thread, where people put down Dawson over and over and over again in every way that they can, but I refuse to post on either that thread or the Anti Pacey and Joey thread, because I hate threads that thrive on negativity.

Yes, Dawson was far from perfect, but I think, at heart, he was a good guy, and at the end of Season Three, it had to be emotionally devastating for him to find out that the girl he loved with all his heart had fallen in love with his best friend. No, Pacey and Joey didn’t “betray” Dawson, and they had every right to fall in love with one another, and it all came down to missed opportunities for them to tell him, but still, he was hurt by what had happened, and he had every right to be hurt. Dawson did and said some crummy things after he found out about Pacey and Joey, and he said some very mean things to Pacey, but Pacey also said some very mean things to him, but that always gets lost in the sea of Pacey adoration and Dawson hatred here.

Before anyone accuses me of hating Pacey, I don’t. I like Pacey as much as I like Dawson, and truth be told, I can identify with Pacey more than I can Dawson, and I always found Pacey to be a kind and caring person with a heart of gold, but I’ve never viewed Dawson in the completely negative ways that so many people here view him, and I never will, and it frustrates me to no end to see so many negative comments being constantly posted about him, so as I result, I mostly stay away from this board now, and I just post my old commentaries in case anyone might want to read them, but maybe that's not such a good idea, judging from the reaction that my posts get. Oh well.
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Old 02-25-2005, 10:25 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueLovePJer
COOLCAT,
In "Stolen Kisses", Joey said it "made her feel alive", so how do you expect him not to kiss her?

he puts the decision in her hands. .
Maybe because he is at Dawson's Aunt house and there was a big risk of Dawson or Andie seeing them and it devesting them as his Aunt said. As for the wall I said what I said and stand behind it let's talk about it more when we get to True Love.



I agree 100% with what you said Jerry and I really hope you continue to post you're old commentaries because I love reading what you thought when this stuff first aired. Also I hope you are well and I wish you the best and respect you still find the time to be the administrator.
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Old 02-25-2005, 10:26 AM
  #64
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Quote:
I see the most popular thread here is the Anti Dawson and Joey thread, where people put down Dawson over and over and over again in every way that they can
Thanks for your post Jerry D, but in regards to this statement, the Anti-Dawson and Joey thread came about only after an Anti-Pacey and Joey thread was created. It's not out fault that we keep it going.
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Old 02-25-2005, 10:29 AM
  #65
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Sorry I didn't see your post COOLCAT until after I posted...

Quote:
Maybe because he is at Dawson's Aunt house and there was a big risk of Dawson or Andie seeing them and it devesting them as his Aunt said.
You lost me on this one. So Pacey likes the thrill of possibly getting caught?

Quote:
As for the wall I said what I said and stand behind it let's talk about it more when we get to True Love.
Sounds good to me
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Old 02-25-2005, 10:29 AM
  #66
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The truth of thematter is there are tons of DJers on this board, they just dont choose to debate or leave certain threads and that's fine, it's been like that for a long while now, I sort of resent the implication though that just because they arent out chatting on the threads and "Dawson haters" or PJers are somehow makes this board tiring or bad in some way, I think this is still one of the best boards at FanForum.


Anyway, I think leaving True Love alone, calling Pacey calculating in SK is sort of out of bounds unless you call telling the harsh truth calculating. I also dont buy that he was calculating in True Love either, he planned and made a decisive move to get Joey, but calculating is not the right word to describe it, we'll leave that for the TL discussion though,
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Old 02-25-2005, 10:36 AM
  #67
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Oh, I agree that this is still one of the best boards at Fan Forum, but the number of D/Jers still willing to debate this issues have really dwindled, and I feel that it's hard to be a Dawson fan around here, but I've just come to accept that, although it frustrates me sometimes, like it did earlier.

I know that the Anti Pacey and Joey thread was started first, and I really wish that it hadn't been started, because to be honest, I don't like Anti Threads at all, but I just commented that the most popular thread here seems to be the Anti Dawson and Joey thread.
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Old 02-25-2005, 10:36 AM
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[QUOTE=TrueLovePJer]Sorry I didn't see your post COOLCAT until after I posted...
ou lost me on this one. So Pacey likes the thrill of possibly getting caught?
QUOTE]

No but he did not even think about that and just acted on his feelings. He and Joey were lucky it was Dawson's Aunt that saw that and not Dawson or Andie.
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Old 02-25-2005, 12:14 PM
  #69
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Perhaps one of the biggest differences between Pacey and Dawson is shown in SK. Dawson overanalyizes everything before he does it. He has to look at it and think about the consequences before he makes a move.

Pacey acts first and things later. He goes with what his heart is telling him and doesn't think twice about it until after he's done it. I don't think either of those approaches are wrong.

I can understand why Pacey kissed Joey outside Aunt Gwen's house. He'd been trying to deny his feelings all weekend. Then Joey hit him with the "We're supposed to create our own histor-I didn't mean that." Which confused the poor boy even more. So finally she realizes shes at the point where she has to say something to him. So he tells him that his touch makes her feel alive. That's pretty much a green light, and you've got to admit that I think most guys would make some move on that statement. He gave her plenty of time to say no or turn away or stop him. But she didn't. I honestly don't think there was anything wrong with that kiss. Pacey and Andie had been over for a while..so she really didn't have that much of a right to be upset. Dawson and Joey had been over with for almost an entire year. So don't tell me he had the right to get that upset either..I could go on but I'll wait for the next epidsode. Oh how I love the end of season 3..just so much to debate.
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Old 02-25-2005, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueLoveBeliever346
So don't tell me he had the right to get that upset either..
Sorry I just have to say Sure he did as the woman he loved had fallen for not just someone else but his best friend. He is human and does feel pain. I totally understand that.
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Old 02-25-2005, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueLoveBeliever346
So don't tell me he had the right to get that upset either..
Sorry I just have to say Sure he did as the woman he loved had fallen for not just someone else but his best friend. He is human and does feel pain. I totally understand that. I say bring on the TLD as I just got done with my review of it.
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Old 02-25-2005, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
He is human and does feel pain. I totally understand that.
I understand that too. I just think he played the betrayed card for way too long and didn't let it go till the Finale. I'm sure he was also afraid of the group dynamic changing as well.

Please keep posting your episode commentaries, Jerry. I really enjoy reading them.
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Old 02-26-2005, 09:42 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry D
I feel that it's hard to be a Dawson fan around here
It is. That's why I don't come around here as much. I like P/J and I like D/J hell I liked D/Jen ... I watched the show for the show. And yeah, looking back the S3 triangle arch was the bad way to go. Like you said Dawson became the villain and Pacey became the hero. It didn't seem right. Hope you continue to post your commentaries, I love them, btw. And well .. that's about it.
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Old 02-27-2005, 02:19 PM
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Well said, Jerry D, on all accounts.

As much as I am a huge fan of Pacey and Joey, I do like Dawson, too. All I have to do is turn on season one of my DC DVDs and I remember how much I like him. I think he did some horrible things in season three, but I've never hated him, and I always thought he was a generally good guy (both he and Pacey were). I found the triangle to be exciting, entertaining, and ultimately, extremely tragic. It's at the same time one of the best and worst things that have come out of the show. I loved it, but I also didn't approve of the way Dawson's character was annihilated, both by the writers and the fans. An intense hatred for a main character by its fanbase is not healthy.
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Old 03-02-2005, 06:28 AM
  #75
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I know we're already onto The Longest Day thread, but my posts were answered and I think it's rude not to come back and respond!


Quote:
Originally Posted by *Jerry D*
The way that Pacey “got to Joey,” in Stolen Kisses, in my humble opinion, was when he walked out on Dawson and Joey singing in the barn, and he got exactly the reaction that he wanted from Joey,
How do you know that was exactly the reaction he wanted, though? You don't. Joey is singing with Dawson. Pacey quietly leaves the room and you think he expects her to let the others see her leaving to follow him? Especially when he knows she doesn't want the others suspecting anything? I don't think it makes much sense. I think that's some of your residual anger from way back then shining through! (lol)


Quote:
Originally Posted by *Jerry D*
and I feel that he forced the issue with her.
By getting her to admit how she felt? Who followed who outside after karaoke? Who again went out to find Pacey without any kind of prompting later before the final kiss? Pacey didn't force anything. It was a situation that they both knew they needed to discuss - especially after the '10' kiss. Why do you think Joey actually tried to tell Dawson before being interrupted by Aunt Gwen? He didn't ask her or hint or force her to tell Dawson about them did he? I think he had every right to ask Joey what was going on with them and how she felt.



Quote:
Originally Posted by *Jerry D*
I feel that anyone who has even a modicum of sympathy towards Dawson is going to be maligned here.
I don't mind sympathy for Dawson as long as it's well placed and fitting. I can feel sympathy for Dawon over this situation - doesn't make him any less of a prick because of the way he acted. I don't think I malign anyone here who supports Dawson. I just want them to justify their points, with some logic and it's frustrating when they can't or won't and ignore valid arguments that knocks holes in theirs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by *Jerry D*
but Pacey also said some very mean things to him, but that always gets lost in the sea of Pacey adoration and Dawson hatred here.
No, I don't think it does. I've seen posts from P/Jers who acknowledge when Pacey is wrong. I'm one of them, but what does get lost by the D/J fans a lot is that it's usually Dawson who provokes these verbal attacks! He starts being mean first and Pacey ends up having to defend himself by being mean back!



Quote:
Originally Posted by *Jerry D*
I just post my old commentaries in case anyone might want to read them, but maybe that's not such a good idea, judging from the reaction that my posts get. Oh well.
That's because they are your old commentaries, Jerry, mostly full of negativity about Pacey and Joey. I've read a few previous old ones you've posted and they hadn't been backed up with what you currently felt about what went on then - but you have done it with this one about Stolen Kisses.



Quote:
Originally Posted by *Jerry D*
I just don’t have the energy to debate these old issues anymore, at least not like I used to.
That's a great shame, Jerry. I'm not quite there yet as you can obvioulsy tell! But the bursts of energy and urges for debate has dwindled to some extent in me.



Quote:
Originally Posted by *COOLCAT200*
Jaycee I did not mean to ignore the post you made as you are right I disagree with some of the points on Pacey being calculating but I think he was clear as he admitted the only reason he came was because of Joey.
Check the definitions!

*• selfishly scheming.
*• tending to control situations for your own advantage in a way that is slightly unpleasant and causes people not to trust you:
*• a. Shrewd; crafty: the calculating defense of an experienced attorney.
b. Coldly scheming or conniving.

Those definitions are not indicative of Pacey's actions in this ep!



Quote:
Originally Posted by *COOLCAT200*
Sure maybe he was not planning on Kissing her
And if he wasn't planning on kissing her - which he wasn't then he definitely wasn't being calculating. You do understand the definition of the word, don't you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by *COOLCAT200*
but maybe he thought something could happen.
Maybe? That is of your own surmising then, isn't it?
Definition of surmise: a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence.

Your comment has no basis in anything we saw in this ep! In fact, we heard from Pacey's own lips that he didn't expect anything!
Pacey: I came here to be with you! It's as simple as that. I mean, when you like somebody, proximity is a good thing, regardless of how they feel about you. Or don't, as the case may be.

He believed she didn't feel the same way and if he believe that nothing could happen, if he believed that Joey didn't feel the same way, then, Jerry and Coolcat, he couldn't have been calculating as to how he could 'get to' her or pursue her. Therefore, CoolCat, when you say...


Quote:
Originally Posted by *COOLCAT200*
...If he had not gone he knew surly nothing would have happened. He admitted he could not get rid of his feelings for Joey so he had to be hoping on the trip something would maybe happen(maybe)...
...You are again making things up. You can't read his mind. You can only go by what was said and done or even implied on screen. And onscreen, we saw Pacey, in Neverland, admit kissing her was a mistake and agree that it was nothing, more importantly Joey seemed adamant about it too. Then, in his frustration, prompted by Joey's questioning he said, and I quote again, 'I mean, when you like somebody, proximity is a good thing, regardless of how they feel about you. Or don't, as the case may be.'
He was NOT hoping something would happen on the trip. He just wanted to be near the girl he loved even if he believed there was no chance of them being together.
It's not unlike Dawson's (almost intense and scary) pursuit of Jen in S1 when she was dating Cliff. Dawson still wanted her but she didn't want him, but it didn't stop him going to the dance, did it?

Dawson: I'm going to the dance.
Joey: What?
Dawson: It's my only recourse.
Joey: Why?
Dawson: 'Cause Jen is there.


Except we KNOW he had a calculated plan to try and kiss her...

Dawson: I'm the one who should be kissing her, Joey. Not some JCrew ad. I can do it. I can make my bottom lip dance tonight. It's going to happen. I am going to kiss the girl.

There you have evidence of calculation. In Stolen Kisses you don't.
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