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Old 02-24-2005, 10:35 AM
  #46
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I don't think you can't just take incidents out of context and then call them calculating in the way that you mean. I think you have to take the situation as a whole. You forget Joey asked him to give her space which he did and then when she found out he was going away for the summer she was the one who approached him and accused him of running away and giving up on them, which was a bit rich considering,but I digress, so even if his actions can be considered manipulative he only did what he did because she forced the issue with her accusations. I mean if he'd made the same jesture without her initial imput then I could understand the accusation.
I totally agree with you coldwater! And Dawson trying to win Joey's affection by nearly killing Pacey and Will in the Capeside Regatta and then at the "Anti-Prom" where he basically forced the issue upon her and told her she HAD to choose is a bit different than Pacey putting his feelings on a wall and letting her make the decision for herself.
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Old 02-24-2005, 10:38 AM
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I am not trying to compare though it's clear anything Dawson did was more extreme especially in the boat race.
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Old 02-24-2005, 10:38 AM
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And Dawson trying to win Joey's affection by nearly killing Pacey and Will in the Capeside Regatta and then at the "Anti-Prom" where he basically forced the issue upon her and told her she HAD to choose is a bit different than Pacey putting his feelings on a wall and letting her make the decision for herself.
I totally agree TrueLovePJer.
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Old 02-24-2005, 10:45 AM
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Ok that may be true but he was the one leaving not her and was in a sense forcing the issue as well for her to make a choice in this ep for her to give him a reason to stay. He still set that situation up so she would see that'' Ask Me To Stay Thing'' and he wanted Joey.
But I don't see how. He was going to leave without telling her, which may have been cowardly or hurtful to her after the fact, but how exactly was he going to force the issue to get her to ask him to stay if as far as he knew she didn't even know he was leaving?

My point was if she hadn't confronted him outside the store and accused him of giving up on them he wouldn't have made the sign. He would have just given up on her and left without a word so I'm not sure what situation he set up? If anything she was the one who forced the issue and then backpeddled again when he called her bluff. But I think this is getting off the point of the thread so I'll leave it until the actual epsiode rolls around.

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Old 02-24-2005, 10:47 AM
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I totally agree TrueLovePJer
Thanks jopace
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Old 02-24-2005, 10:57 AM
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But I am talking about after her talk with Pacey in True Love. Doing the Wall Thing just forced the issue even more because it made her have to deal with the fact the man she was in love with was leaving for 3 months and it caused her to be even more conflicted I think and that's why I think she was so upset doing her dance with Dawson because she did not want to lose her friendship with Dawson but on the other hand the guy who she wanted to be with was leaving.
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Old 02-24-2005, 11:28 AM
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But I am talking about after her talk with Pacey in True Love. Doing the Wall Thing just forced the issue even more because it made her have to deal with the fact the man she was in love with was leaving for 3 months and it caused her to be even more conflicted I think and that's why I think she was so upset doing her dance with Dawson because she did not want to lose her friendship with Dawson but on the other hand the guy who she wanted to be with was leaving.
That may have been true, but that doesn't really change the fact that she forced the issue first and that he was responding to that. So if he was being manipulative then let's face it so was she by being disingenuous when she accused him of giving up on them just because he'd decided to get away from the situation for the summer instead of sticking around while she kept him dangling.
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Old 02-24-2005, 11:33 AM
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She did accuse him of that but he brought up a great point in that the choice to be together or not as always been hers. But you are right I guess they all were manipulative in some way.
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Old 02-24-2005, 11:59 AM
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But you are right I guess they all were manipulative in some way.
That wasn't really my point though. My point was I don't believe just because someone isn't motivated entirely by selflessness that doesn't automatically makes their actions deliberately manipulative or sinsister in the way that some people seem to mean sometimes. That I think you have to look at the situation as a whole and not just the individual event before you can make that assessment. Otherwise pretty much everything we do unless it can be considered purely unselfish is manipulative.
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Old 02-24-2005, 01:16 PM
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But Paceys actions in True Love werent secret, he didnt do one thing with underlying intentions, he wrote a message clear as day on a wall for Joey to see, plain and simple, he didnt set up an elaborate event under the guise of one thing to get Joey to do another, completly ignoring her personal wishes.
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Old 02-24-2005, 03:46 PM
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Until we get to the next episode I will just leave at what I said for now.
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Old 02-25-2005, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by COOLCAT200
But what about in True Love how Pacey set up Joey to stop by the wall and see the ''Ask Me To Stay Thing''?.
We were talking about Stolen Kisses and in particular, Jerry's post that I was responding to.

Does ignoring my post and the reasons I've given to prove Pacey wasn't being calculating in SK mean you agree with me and therefore need to jump to a completely didfferent situation and episode to still tar him as calculating? Or does it mean you don't agree for whatever reason? It would be nice to actually read people's reasons as to exactly how Pacey was calculationg in SK.
Does anyone think it was a calculated act to come along on a trip to Aunt Gwens's to 'pursue' Joey, if so what did he actually do to pursue her or did he deliberately leave the karaoke singing to force Joey to follow him out? If so, how would he have known she'd follow him?

It's frustrating when you're told a character is this or that but no actual examples are given. Jerry, you said you 'didn’t like the calculated way that Pacey “got to Joey” in this episode.' Well, how exactly did he get to her and do you really think Joey is that malleable? I don't because in the next ep we see that Joey is very adamant about what she doesn't want (Dawson with romantic intentions towards her) about what she's going to do, (try to stay out of it completely and give up Pacey so things might get back to normal). I know you're not a big fan of Joey's Jerry, and maybe you're doing her an injustice here if you think she allowed Pacey to calculatingly manipulate her. Which I don't see any evidence of in this ep. Although, Dawson did try to manipulate her and we saw how much that did work on her - up to a point.
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Old 02-25-2005, 07:54 AM
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I hope by saying "getting to Joey" that didnt mean the way Pacey drew her out because that certainly wasnt calculating, he was drawing her true feelings out, hemade her face facts that otherwise she'd never face up to, is it considered calculating because it drew her away from Dawson?

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Old 02-25-2005, 09:32 AM
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Jaycee I did not mean to ignore the post you made as you are right I disagree with some of the points on Pacey being calculating but I think he was clear as he admitted the only reason he came was because of Joey. Sure maybe he was not planning on Kissing her but maybe he thought something could happen. If he had not gone he knew surly nothing would have happened. He admitted he could not get rid of his feelings for Joey so he had to be hoping on the trip something would maybe happen(maybe). Take into the fact it was Dawson's Aunt house and there was a good chance Dawson or Andie could have easily scene him kiss her I just don't think it was a smart move.

Sugz he might of been getting her feelings out but he still did set up the situation for Joey to see the wall. Had he not called Bessie would Joey of gone by there? probably not. At least not that night and Pacey was leaving and needed her to see it.
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Old 02-25-2005, 09:56 AM
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Take into the fact it was Dawson's Aunt house and there was a good chance Dawson or Andie could have easily scene him kiss her I just don't think it was a smart move.
Well being dumb and irresponsible isn't really the same as being calculated. And that still doesn't say that he went there with the intention of kissing her or even thinking they would get together. Obviously he wanted to be with her and be near her, but it's still possible to have all those feelings and those wishes and still not expect anything will come of it. It happens all the time.
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