TrueLovePJer

Ok, but you were referring to the "Kiss the Rain" scene and DJ having chemistry and no one was arguing with you about it. And p.s. thanks for agreeing with me about the camera work

COOLCAT200

I know I was just stating I feel they had it the entire series run. Welcome. Nothing like end of season 3 talk to stir up discussion.

Sugz

I didnt mean to stir up a discussion abut chemistry, I know it's subjective but calling that fact into account was just my way of saying that Pacey and Joeys chemistry in this episode was probably as close to undeniable as you can come. For the record, I do believe Dawson and Joey had chemistry very early on in the series but as the series progressed they just seemed more and more awkward.

coldwater1010

Ah the season 3 triangle. I thought they could have handled it better, but considering we were dealing with a show that felt the need to put the DJ dynamic on such a pedastal to the point that any other character who dared to step on that dynamic by actually pursuing either Dawson or Joey, even when they'd been single for a good while were treated as if they were committing some type of mortal sin on par with killing someone's child to me was a big part of the problem. To me it was all so much hyperbole and maybe if they'd cut that out they wouldn't have wound up with such a divisive storyline.While I can understand them needing to be sensitive to Dawson's feelings and Andie's for that matter I've never really understood why Pacey having feelings for Joey and actually daring to do something about it instead of chosing to remain all stoic and suffer in silence was treated as such a big the way the show did and if it had been any other relationship besides the DJ one I doubt so much fuss would have been made. I mean the show never made a big deal about the fact that Andie was still in love with Pacey and wanted him back.I can't think of too many people who felt that either Pacey or Joey needed to run it by Andie to make sure she'd be ok with them hooking up. You'd think that would have been a bigger deal considering the girl had already had a mental breakdown. I know I'd have been more worried about how it would affect her than Dawson just for that reason alone.

As for the epsiode. Hated Jen's storyline. It was just dumb and Mitch and Gale's storyline. Talk about boring and as for Aunt Gwen I'm still not sure what we were supposed to get from her. I guess they were aiming for some sort of neutrality, but she just came came across as a tired, hypocritical cliche to me. And the fact that she encourages Dawson to go after Joey even though she herself tells Joey that she knows Joey kissing Pacey wasn't some whim just came off as cold to me. Like she was trying to set him up for a fall. Loved the kiss at the end, infact all PJ's kisses, but overall I thought it was a meh episode. And while there can never be too much Pacey in a wifebeater - I thought he looked pretty hot this episode- the whole sleeping arrangements was just poor contrivance. I mean three sleeping bags, one double bed, three guys and two girls. Was it really that hard for them to sort that out? I know being intelligent, doesn't mean that you'll be blessed with a certain amount of common sense, but still.

Tuffy

I really liked this episode, but I didnt think much of the Aunt Gwen character..she kind of got on my nerves..But aside from that this episode was close to perfection..I love the "counting to 10" part..

cocopop101

I absolutely love this episode. I can watch it over and over again and never get tired of it.

I love the two P/J kisses especially the end kiss. So much chemistry and I loved that it was Joey who made the move. Hated Auny Gwen and really didn't understand what she was all about. She talked about having this great life with this great man but then tried to steer Joey away from the exact same thing with Pacey. Didn't get it.

Loved Jen in this episode but I think she is excellent in every episode.

Fantastic episode

Jaycee

Oh Jerry! jerry, you must have known I wouldn't be able to leave this one alone!

I didn't realise you still felt that way about it! There must still be a bit of the D/Jer in you, eh?

If you wrote a post entitled 'why blame Pacey?' then why should Stolen Kisses have changed that? Was it really that much of a crime that Pacey went on this trip with his friends, that he had been invited to, even though secretly in his heart it was so he could be near the girl he loved? So what if he went mainly because Joey would be there? He never acted on what he felt! I remember arguing this over and over every time this subject came up. Dawson actively pursued Joey in Show Me Love and The Anti Prom to the extreme, without regard for Joey's clearly expressed wishes, without regard for her or Pacey's feelings. Pacey went to Aunt Gwen's so he could breathe the same air as her. That's all. He was in love! He didn't go to actively pursue her. There was no elaborate plot, no premeditated scheme! Unlike Dawson. So you really need to take back that 'calculated' potshot you took. It wasn't calculated. How could it be when it was made obvious that Pacey had originally turned down the invitation? That he wasn't going to go until Will turned up?

You don't specify exactly how you thought Pacey managed to 'get to' Joey so I can only speculate.
So what did he do to 'get to' her? Do you really believe that he deliberately left the room while D/J were singing because he knew Joey would follow him? How did he force Joey to say he made her feel alive? Did he do voodoo on her to make her come out looking for him before their final kiss of the ep? What?
It's Joey who, 9 times out of 10, makes the first move. He didn't expect or ask her to follow him out. He didn't expect her to call him back by saying she felt alive. She was the one who went looking for him before the final kiss. Every move Joey made, she made of her own volition because she had feelings for him too! Not because he manipulated her into them but because she wanted to act on her feelings, she wanted to be with him too!

He did tell Joey how he felt and he asked her how she felt and this was after the '10' kiss - a kiss Joey was obviously ready and waiting for - so now they did need to discuss what was going to happen next. If Joey had put an end to it there and then Pacey would have respected her wishes. You can bet Dawson wouldn't have and we got proof of that over the next 3 eps!

The differences between Pacey's behaviour and Dawson's behaviour are so glaringly obvious that it astounds me that Pacey is accused of being calculating and just as bad as Dawson! In this instance, there was no double standard. The two situations were just not the same.



Oh yes, I agree, completely contrived. Andie would have shared the bed with Joey, but I loved this contrivance! Hee!

coldwater1010

I always saw Pacey's actions in Stolen Moments as more masochistic than manipulative because it seemed like he didn't think anything was going to happen between them or that she would feel about him the way he felt about her, but even so he still couldn't help taking whatever excuse he could to be near her.

I don't reallly think that every action that isn't purely selfless automatically becomes deliberately manipulative or calculated.

jopace1970

I agree.

COOLCAT200

But what about in True Love how Pacey set up Joey to stop by the wall and see the ''Ask Me To Stay Thing''?. I mean that was calculated I think.

hshapir2

Jaycee, fantastic post. Coolcat, the difference is he didn't manipulate her by saying he would never speak to her again like Dawson did. Whether she asked him to stay or not, it wasn't going to be the end of the world

COOLCAT200

I agree it wasn't going to be the end of the world but that still does not mean in that instance Pacey was not calculating.

~AnastasiaGrey~

I was just browsing through this thread and wanted to add my response to it.

The way some people are saying about pacey, they are acting like he was purposely trying to pursue his feelings for joey right under dawson's nose. I am sorry but i have to disagree on that, in order to make that statement about a character like pacey it has to be true, and pacey isnt the type to just maliciously do that to his suppose best friend. But what did u expect the guy to do, stay in silence about his feelings and do nothing about it. If that happened it would of started another whole debate about why he was never upfront with his feelings for joey when he had the chance.

coldwater1010

I don't think you can't just take incidents out of context and then call them calculating in the way that you mean. I think you have to take the situation as a whole. You forget Joey asked him to give her space which he did and then when she found out he was going away for the summer she was the one who approached him and accused him of running away and giving up on them, which was a bit rich considering,but I digress, so even if his actions can be considered manipulative he only did what he did because she forced the issue with her accusations. I mean if he'd made the same jesture without her initial imput then I could understand the accusation.

I mean if you look at it this way Dawson kissing Joey at the end of s1 when he found out she was going to France could be considered manipulative or even Joey telling him she was leaving and asking for a reason to stay or even him telling her he loved her after she broke up with him. All those actions could be considered deliberate. The reason I wouldn't compare Dawson's actions in the anti prom to any of those incidents or even Pacey's actions in Stolen Kisses is because I think what elevated Dawson's actions wasn't that he wanted to show her how he felt about her, but because he repeatedly chose to ignore everything she was saying to him to the point that it seemed that the only feelings that mattered to him were his own and that he seemed willing to completely disregard her feelings to get what he wanted.

COOLCAT200

Ok that may be true but he was the one leaving not her and was in a sense forcing the issue as well for her to make a choice in this ep for her to give him a reason to stay. He still set that situation up so she would see that'' Ask Me To Stay Thing'' and he wanted Joey.