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Old 07-09-2010, 10:53 PM
  #16
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Finnegan, I see what your getting at. I'm not entirely sure which thread would be the correct place to discuss that topic, but its probably not this one. Your talking about Dawson's entire character arc-- that the point of the entire show was the death of childhood fantasies. Because that's what growing up requires. This thread is a place for us to discuss why we don't think DJo worked as a couple and the reasons they brought out the absolute worst in each other. Which they did, repeatedly.

Yes, the show was about growing up. Dawson was a dreamer and he looked at the world through rose-colored glasses. His fantasy was not what I had a problem with. I had a problem with his behavior towards Joey, in relation to that fantasy. So, while I can somewhat empathize with his situation, I do not sympathize with him as a character. At all.
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Old 07-09-2010, 10:55 PM
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The DJ dance throughout the whole series is seriously sickening.. The way that Pacey describes it in "Valentine's Day Massacre" is spot on. I just finished re-watching "The Anti-Prom" and "True Love", and I just can't stand how Joey is so easily manipulated by Dawson.

I think she mostly allowed for that because she was so fearful of the future, though. Dawson was familiar, safe, and comfortable, and family to her. She thought that if she let that go she wouldn't have the safe-haven anymore. Joey knew Dawson well enough to know that if she went with Pacey things would change between them. In "True Love" when they're talking on the docks she says she wants to know that Dawson won't hate her and that things won't change between them, and he can't say that because he knows they will and so does she (which of course should NOT be the case). Joey was just always so scared, and Dawson knew how to manipulate her because of that fact.

Finnegan I'm highly doubting that Kevin Williamson's mission in creating "Dawson's Creek" was to depict the mate-selection process in the contemporary West.
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Old 07-09-2010, 11:08 PM
  #18
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Let's drop the discussion about Africa, India, China, etc. That has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

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I'm trying to express, and invite discussion of, my understanding of the core message of "Dawson's Creek" in its cultural context: that message, in my view, entails both sympathy for Dawson's fantasy of marrying his childhood friend and awareness that he must give it up. That's not very complicated. And this board seems to have no more appropriate thread on which to do it.
I can certainly appreciate the fact that Dawson let go of his tired notion that he and Joey are soulmates. But not everyone is empathetic to his fantasy simply because it's not very realistic today. At least in America. That's the only country I can vouch for. If you're ever unsure of where your message will fit, you can always use the general discussion thread.
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Old 07-10-2010, 09:29 AM
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Even from the first season on, Joey had a more honest relationship with Pacey then she ever did with Dawson. She could never tell D how she felt, even though it was obvious to everyone around them and he was amazingly obtuse. But with Pacey she could joke, be a smart ass, cut loose. The scene where they are collecting snails, after Pacey's ill fated menage a snail, is indicative of who she is despite Dawson. I think that she fell for D because she didn't know any better. Joey lived a pretty insulated life, the same small town, the same people. Pacey did too, but even though he was small town in body, he was not in spirit. He fostered growth in everyone around him and I think that this is what made Joey fall for him. As she said in True Love (not verbatim by any means), everyone tried to hold her back but not him. He challenged her, made her world bigger just by being in it. P showed her what love is supposed to feel like.
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Old 07-10-2010, 12:26 PM
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fringe_du_jour i really agree with what you said here. It makes a lot of sense. And not to mention that she had a lot of fun with Pacey and with him she did things that she never did with anyone else. She took risks. She dared to actually live her life because Pacey helped her live it.

Dawson never dared her to live it. He always wanted her to live his life, not her own. And on top of how wrong that is in the first place, his life wasn't exactly realistic. He had his rose-colored glasses and a fantasy most of the time.
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Old 07-10-2010, 03:18 PM
  #21
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It makes sense that Joey would *think* she loved Dawson in a romantic way when she was 15 years old. He was someone she could rely on throughout her entire young life, and when she had nothing else, she had Dawson and his family. He represented safety, security and happiness. So, when you don't know what falling in love feels like, then it makes sense to mistake other feelings for love.

As soon as DJo got together, I think Joey started to doubt her feelings for Dawson. She, of course, still loved him as a friend and almost-relative, but she didn't love him as a boyfriend. And when she fell in love for real, there was just no going back to Dawson for anything other than a sense of security.
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Old 07-10-2010, 03:20 PM
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I agree. It was clear to me at about 4 episodes into S2, she was doubting how strong her feelings for Dawson really were. She had built their relationship up in her mind as this grand thing and I think she realized that it really wasn't.

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Even from the first season on, Joey had a more honest relationship with Pacey then she ever did with Dawson. She could never tell D how she felt, even though it was obvious to everyone around them and he was amazingly obtuse. But with Pacey she could joke, be a smart ass, cut loose. The scene where they are collecting snails, after Pacey's ill fated menage a snail, is indicative of who she is despite Dawson. I think that she fell for D because she didn't know any better. Joey lived a pretty insulated life, the same small town, the same people. Pacey did too, but even though he was small town in body, he was not in spirit. He fostered growth in everyone around him and I think that this is what made Joey fall for him. As she said in True Love (not verbatim by any means), everyone tried to hold her back but not him. He challenged her, made her world bigger just by being in it. P showed her what love is supposed to feel like.
I your post. Especially the bolded parts. So true.
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Old 07-12-2010, 06:52 AM
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It makes sense that Joey would *think* she loved Dawson in a romantic way when she was 15 years old. He was someone she could rely on throughout her entire young life, and when she had nothing else, she had Dawson and his family. He represented safety, security and happiness. So, when you don't know what falling in love feels like, then it makes sense to mistake other feelings for love.
Agreed.

I do actually like their friendship, it's when they think it's romantic that it bothers me. For e.g. Coda - I like the episode until they have to kiss at the end. I can see why it's so significant that the two characters are leaving Capeside and venturing off on their own for the first time. But how Joey can kiss him again after only just breaking up with Pacey, in a completely devastating way no less, I can never understand. She always goes running back to him, no matter what the circumstances!
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Old 07-12-2010, 08:35 AM
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Agreed.

I do actually like their friendship, it's when they think it's romantic that it bothers me. For e.g. Coda - I like the episode until they have to kiss at the end. I can see why it's so significant that the two characters are leaving Capeside and venturing off on their own for the first time. But how Joey can kiss him again after only just breaking up with Pacey, in a completely devastating way no less, I can never understand. She always goes running back to him, no matter what the circumstances!
That kiss had me cringing, and made me absolutely livid. I thought Joey had grown so much as person when she was with Pacey, and then as soon as they're not together anymore she reverts back to that scared little girl.
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Old 07-12-2010, 08:45 AM
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I know what you mean. I love Joey on her own or with Pacey, she's such a strong, intelligent woman but that all disapeared whenever her and Dawson were together. They're always 15, in his room, having the same conversations over & over again. Eeek, very annoying.

In S4 I just don't know how Pacey and Gretchen both put up with how obsessed DJ were with each other. It can't be very nice for the exsisting partners, if JP had broke up for any reason it should have been because of their never ending dance, that would be enough to drive anyone away.
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:02 AM
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Yeah, I'm surprised at that, too. Although with that being said, I do understand why Pacey felt like he was nothing when he was with Joey. I think that was probably a large part of that.
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:11 AM
  #27
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Yeah, I'm surprised at that, too. Although with that being said, I do understand why Pacey felt like he was nothing when he was with Joey. I think that was probably a large part of that.
Pacey made the break-up sound like it was all to do with "the future", which I didn't think was believable because Joey was always supportive of Pacey in that way, she never put any pressure on him to be anyone he didn't want to be.

If Pacey had broke up with Joey because of Dawson (mentioning him) that would have made a lot more sense to me, especially considering the look on his face when he saw them dancing during Promicide.
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:37 AM
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Pacey made the break-up sound like it was all to do with "the future", which I didn't think was believable because Joey was always supportive of Pacey in that way, she never put any pressure on him to be anyone he didn't want to be.

If Pacey had broke up with Joey because of Dawson (mentioning him) that would have made a lot more sense to me, especially considering the look on his face when he saw them dancing during Promicide.
Yeah, I'm just looking at the underlying meaning of his little speech because like you said, what he actually said didn't make a lot of sense! haha
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:55 PM
  #29
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Yeah, he says that he isn't Jealous, he isn't mad, he isn't actually "anything at all" and i always think...yeah, sure. This whole year you've brought up Dawson, and he's always been a sore subject, always coming between the two of you, and you see her having a good time and laughing with the guy and you aren't jealous? Sure.

and like you said, Rachey1984, the look on his face before he comes up shows he is definitely jealous. And angry. I think him saying that goes along with his whole "i feel like nothing" rant. But i'm sure it actually hurt to seem them and he was likely jealous.
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Old 07-13-2010, 03:39 PM
  #30
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Pacey's rant during Promicide was about a lot of things. In that instant, he was definitely jealous of Joey dancing/laughing with Dawson, but his words don't match up with what I have to believe he was feeling. In fact, he pretty much contradicts himself as he is yelling at Joey--was it poor-writing? Or was Pacey so confused that he wasn't even sure why he was ranting in the first place? I suppose we'll never know.

And as much as I LOATHE the kiss at the end of Coda, I can easily chalk it up to Joey being distraught over all the things she lost/is losing. The love of her life just dumped her and left town. Now her childhood best-friend and security blanket is picking up and moving 3000 miles away. She used the only ammo she had-- she kissed him. It was a desperate act on her part and I don't look at it as if she is betraying Pacey. Rather, I look at it as a direct result of what Pacey did to her.
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