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Old 07-29-2014, 07:50 PM
  #16
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I just want to say that I LOVE the scene when Gail and Mitch become engaged.
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Old 07-30-2014, 06:57 AM
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I just want to say that I LOVE the scene when Gail and Mitch become engaged.
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Old 07-30-2014, 12:07 PM
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To which Andie would have replied, "Sure go ahead," because unlike Dawson she isn't a manipulator, and because she cares about Pacey she wanted him to be happy no matter what. I also don't think it was "as soon as Andie turned her back", it was "as soon as Joey asked him." I like Andie, but the fact of the matter is she cheated on Pacey. I know I certainly would never not live my life because I'm too afraid to hurt the feelings of my ex who cheated on me. Screw that.
I'm sure if Pacey had asked Andie she would have said yes. But Pacey should have told Andie that he wanted to go to the prom to see Joey and not tell her he would be honoured to take her. He did anything but honour her at the prom.

Andie cheating on Pacey.....Let's see a young lonely frightened girl with mental issues who was most likely on some sort of drugs makes a mistake. Andie was honest. She never had to tell Pacey about her misstep and he never would have known. But she was the kind of girl who wanted to have an honest relationship; so she told him.

I have no problem with Pacey's reaction which was normal when you find out your girlfriend cheated on you. I also think once Pacey understood what happened he would have really forgave her. He played lip service to forgiveness but he didn't forgive her......He also uttered what has to be the stupidest lines in the series

Pacey..."""Whether or not I can forgive you, Andie, is not going to be what keeps us apart. What you did... Our relationship was like this beautiful thing, and I don't think you ever realized how powerful it was. You changed my life, Andie, you were that person for me. You inspired me to be a man that I'd only ever dreamt about being. When you first started to get sick, it dawned on me that I might not be that person for you. I can never go back to loving you the way I did knowing that my love wasn't strong enough the first time around. I could always forgive you, Andie, but I will never forget.'''

What Pacey is insinuating is that his love would have stopped her descent into mental illness.......The writer who came up with that should have been fired.

Pacey eventually did truly forgive Andie and it was in the graduate episode near the end of season four. He acknowledged his debt to her.


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Look, I'm not trying to argue or change your mind. I know that's impossible. And no matter how many times we go back and forth and talk about Joey's "true" feelings and the "real" reason why Kevin wrote the finale the way he did, we have to take the story for what it is. I got the ending I wanted, so Anti-P/J sentiment really doesn't bother me. I just don't like such blatant unfairness. Even with the understanding that people tend to give a pass to those they like, and vilify those they don't, this is just ridiculous. If Pacey is wrong for asking Andie to the prom, and Joey is wrong for not taking Dawson at his word, Dawson is absolutely wrong for lying to Joey and despicable for pretending that he was only throwing the prom for Jack's sake. At least he himself admitted he might have been wrong, even if he didn't take responsibility for the repercussions. And I can't stand when men blame women for their wrongdoings. I love Pacey, but the only time he acted like a jerk at a prom was during Promicide. I understand why he was upset, but he didn't have to embarrass her. But I guess I'll save my comments about it for when we get up to that episode.
I fail to understand what you mean by blatant unfairness. Obviously we are looking at the same scene with different opinions. I don't see where I or anyone else has been unfair. To give Joey Potter some credit she did admit to her sister that she made a mistake accepting the prom date from Dawson, but by accepting the date and knowing the possible consequences, her asking Pacey to dance was out of line. Supposedly she is not a stupid girl and if she had no idea as to how Dawson would have reacted she lives in LaLa land. If she truly loved Pacey why did she run off after Dawson?

Yes you got the ending you wanted. I'm not even going to argue that point, but I do know why you got the ending you wanted and I didn't get the ending I wanted
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Old 07-30-2014, 12:15 PM
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I'm sure if Pacey had asked Andie she would have said yes. But Pacey should have told Andie that he wanted to go to the prom to see Joey and not tell her he would be honoured to take her. He did anything but honour her at the prom.

Andie cheating on Pacey.....Let's see a young lonely frightened girl with mental issues who was most likely on some sort of drugs makes a mistake. Andie was honest. She never had to tell Pacey about her misstep and he never would have known. But she was the kind of girl who wanted to have an honest relationship; so she told him.

I have no problem with Pacey's reaction which was normal when you find out your girlfriend cheated on you. I also think once Pacey understood what happened he would have really forgave her. He played lip service to forgiveness but he didn't forgive her......He also uttered what has to be the stupidest lines in the series

Pacey..."""Whether or not I can forgive you, Andie, is not going to be what keeps us apart. What you did... Our relationship was like this beautiful thing, and I don't think you ever realized how powerful it was. You changed my life, Andie, you were that person for me. You inspired me to be a man that I'd only ever dreamt about being. When you first started to get sick, it dawned on me that I might not be that person for you. I can never go back to loving you the way I did knowing that my love wasn't strong enough the first time around. I could always forgive you, Andie, but I will never forget.'''

What Pacey is insinuating is that his love would have stopped her descent into mental illness.......The writer who came up with that should have been fired.

Pacey eventually did truly forgive Andie and it was in the graduate episode near the end of season four. He acknowledged his debt to her.




I fail to understand what you mean by blatant unfairness. Obviously we are looking at the same scene with different opinions. I don't see where I or anyone else has been unfair. To give Joey Potter some credit she did admit to her sister that she made a mistake accepting the prom date from Dawson, but by accepting the date and knowing the possible consequences, her asking Pacey to dance was out of line. Supposedly she is not a stupid girl and if she had no idea as to how Dawson would have reacted she lives in LaLa land. If she truly loved Pacey why did she run off after Dawson?

Yes you got the ending you wanted. I'm not even going to argue that point, but I do know why you got the ending you wanted and I didn't get the ending I wanted
I do agree with what is said here, but dawson annoyed me and I was rooting for PJo by then . the remember everything with the bracelet is one of my favorite episodes of the season. be careful in not to start a ship war. thanks.
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Old 07-30-2014, 09:41 PM
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It's not my intention to start a shipper war. I don't mind when one expresses a criticism of another; we all have that right. I just don't like it when someone is being vilified for something (in this case having false pretenses or being manipulative), and another is completely exonerated for doing the same, only much worse. That is the definition of unjust.

Pacey was wrong because he asked Andie to the prom under false pretenses - he really wanted to be able to stare at Joey. Pacey put it as something like "I thought I invited you tonight because I wanted to go with you, and I wish that was the case. I realized I really wanted to go because she... [was going to be there (I think)]" I believe him. I also believe that he wouldn't have thought, much less known, that Joey was going to ask him to dance. I don't see how he was manipulating Andie. But I guess that's up for debate.

Whereas Dawson admitted to only coming up with the idea for the prom because he wanted to dance with Joey and hold her - not for Jack's sake. And this is after he told Joey that he only wanted to go with her for the sake of their friendship - not to rekindle the romantic relationship she didn't want. Dawson literally had false pretenses for both the prom and for inviting Joey. He was clearly manipulating the situation. That's not up for debate. That's a fact. Period. Now, whether or not you think it was romantic (or even merely excusable) that Dawson manipulated the situation is a matter of opinion.

That's all. I'm just a little OCD about stuff like that; it's a pet peeve of mine, sorry.

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[...Pacey] also uttered what has to be the stupidest lines in the series[...] "You changed my life, Andie, you were that person for me. You inspired me to be a man that I'd only ever dreamt about being. When you first started to get sick, it dawned on me that I might not be that person for you. I can never go back to loving you the way I did knowing that my love wasn't strong enough the first time around. I could always forgive you, Andie, but I will never forget." What Pacey is insinuating is that his love would have stopped her descent into mental illness. The writer who came up with that should have been fired.
If that's what he meant, I agree with you. I always assumed he meant 'strong enough to keep her from cheating on him'; but, taking the whole monologue into consideration, I guess it would make more sense that he meant his love and support wasn't enough to keep her sane. That is one of several ridiculous and/or offensive comments made throughout the course of this series.

I won't comment on the rest because we're supposed to be discussing the Anti-Prom, plus it would go nowhere. I already said that regardless of what we all think we know about Kevin Williamson's "real" motives, unless anyone on here is really Kevin Williamson pretending to be someone else, we have to take the show for what was presented. I think Dawson and Joey had sex only to appease D/Jers, and that it was tainted because he had a girlfriend. That doesn't make the event any less gross for me, any less special for D/Jers, and any less true in Dawson's Creek Land. It was what it was.
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Old 07-31-2014, 06:31 AM
  #21
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Well, when I said I was looking forward to the chat that this episode would create, I never expected such passion. I like reading the different points of view and how some facts can get distorted through different points of view. It's very interesting.

The Anti-Prom (or parts of it) was a very enjoyable episode for me. I have made no secret that I am not a Dawson fan, although I would not go so far as be anti-Dawson. There were a lot of good and bad qualities in his character. In Anti-prom the qualities that are best portrayed would be of course the selfish reason he came up with the idea of anti-prom and I don't think that can be disputed. This was supposed to be about closed mindedness of those planning the original Prom and labels that are put on certain people. The anti-prom was a good idea, so you have to give Dawson credit for thinking of it; however, his reasons were purely selfish.

He also dictated how Joey should be and what choices she should make. I'm not making excuses for Joey because she made some really bad choices when it came to Dawson. When she accepted his invitation to the prom, she should have made it clear to him that it was only because of their pact that they had made; therefore, not feeding into any expectations that Dawson may have (but he would likely have those anyway).

As far as Andie, yes it was unfair of Pacey to say it would be an honour (wrong words), I think he should have simply said that he would be happy to take her to prom and that would have been true. I mean, let's be honest here girls, who really wants to go to Prom alone? I don't think Andie had any expectations about Pacey taking her to Prom and that so called broken heart that was caused from seeing Pacey and Joey dancing was more a look of regret that it couldn't be her anymore who holds Pacey's heart. I give Andie a lot of credit for her role in this episode, she had no false illusions like Dawson did and I could go on about those illusions, but I think I've been too negative as it is and I try not to focus on those negatives too much as I prefer to see the positives.

Now getting to Pacey and Joey, you can't deny that that dancing scene was not powerful regardless of whether you ship them or not. There was a lot of emotion going on there and I did feel bad for both of them and I did feel bad for Andie when she saw them.

Although the episode was about Jack and the Anti-prom and I feel the writers did do some justice to keeping the storyline on track with that, I really feel that it got lost behind the powerfulness of the P/Jo storyline. And the discussions thus far here in this thread is proof of that, whether you are a P/Jo fan or not, the discussions have been solely surrounded by that moment which lasted all of 2:48 on screen. You can't deny how powerful that scene was.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtkd7YS4Gg8
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Old 07-31-2014, 06:36 AM
  #22
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very interesting points being made.
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Old 07-31-2014, 10:26 AM
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I always find this discussion during the time that Pacey/Joey went behind Dawson's back in the manner that they did interesting because Dawson seems to take a lot of heat. It's interesting to me. I mean, some conveniently forget what was actually done to Dawson to create any reaction in the first place.

I have to wonder how many of us would react if we were Dawson? What if your best male friend stabbed you in the back like that, not only falling for, but actually actively acting on feelings for the girl you have always loved in one way or another since you were little? Would we all just step aside and applaud and cheer on your best guy friend and the girl you were in love with? I highly doubt many would.

I have always found this very interesting. The Dawson hatred has always been there and of course the character was used as a means to almost make it "okay" that he was stabbed in the back.

In my opinion, Dawson and Andie were both made to look extra bad in season 3 in order to make way for Pacey/Joey. It was always glaringly obvious to me and I never fell for it.

The beauty that was Pacey/Andie was essentially destroyed in order for Pacey/Joey to happen. I just can't get over that. I really can't.

I have tried more than once to rewatch the series and see things differently but I can't. I can't go there. Not for a lack of trying.

Bringing it back to this episode, I just can't enjoy it. Not when I see where the show was going from this point forward. It makes me sad. I was such a huge Dawson's Creek fan. Seasons 1 and 2 were so good. After that, the show took a turn that made me so sad.
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Old 07-31-2014, 11:42 AM
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Did you watch all six seasons though, even after the P/Jo pairing? And if you did, did you like again?
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Old 07-31-2014, 12:22 PM
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Did you watch all six seasons though, even after the P/Jo pairing? And if you did, did you like again?
Indeed, I watched all six seasons live when it was on air, and then quite a few times on rewatch. To be honest, when Pacey/Joey reunited in season 6, I actually enjoyed some of their interaction. But then Joey went back to Eddie which was utterly ridiculous in my opinion and left Pacey heartbroken and confused. I hated seeing Pacey unhappy.
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Old 07-31-2014, 02:04 PM
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Indeed, I watched all six seasons live when it was on air, and then quite a few times on rewatch. To be honest, when Pacey/Joey reunited in season 6, I actually enjoyed some of their interaction. But then Joey went back to Eddie which was utterly ridiculous in my opinion and left Pacey heartbroken and confused. I hated seeing Pacey unhappy.
they were so contrived by then imo. I shipped them until they started to bore me and I will always like season 3 Pjo. there were a lot of good moments there and you know how I feel about pacey's gestures?
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Old 08-01-2014, 06:34 AM
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I always find this discussion during the time that Pacey/Joey went behind Dawson's back in the manner that they did interesting because Dawson seems to take a lot of heat. It's interesting to me. I mean, some conveniently forget what was actually done to Dawson to create any reaction in the first place.

I have to wonder how many of us would react if we were Dawson? What if your best male friend stabbed you in the back like that, not only falling for, but actually actively acting on feelings for the girl you have always loved in one way or another since you were little? Would we all just step aside and applaud and cheer on your best guy friend and the girl you were in love with? I highly doubt many would.

I have always found this very interesting. The Dawson hatred has always been there and of course the character was used as a means to almost make it "okay" that he was stabbed in the back.

In my opinion, Dawson and Andie were both made to look extra bad in season 3 in order to make way for Pacey/Joey. It was always glaringly obvious to me and I never fell for it.

The beauty that was Pacey/Andie was essentially destroyed in order for Pacey/Joey to happen. I just can't get over that. I really can't.

I have tried more than once to rewatch the series and see things differently but I can't. I can't go there. Not for a lack of trying.

Bringing it back to this episode, I just can't enjoy it. Not when I see where the show was going from this point forward. It makes me sad. I was such a huge Dawson's Creek fan. Seasons 1 and 2 were so good. After that, the show took a turn that made me so sad.
Well said about Dawson's actions.

And I agree about how the writers made Dawson and Andie look bad in this season to make the P/Jo pairing look better. P/Jo definitely had their moments, and maybe I could have shipped them more if it hadn't changed Dawson and Andie's character for the worst.

No offence to P/Jo shippers. I can still see why you guys ship them.
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Old 08-01-2014, 12:03 PM
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Well said about Dawson's actions.

And I agree about how the writers made Dawson and Andie look bad in this season to make the P/Jo pairing look better. P/Jo definitely had their moments, and maybe I could have shipped them more if it hadn't changed Dawson and Andie's character for the worst.

No offence to P/Jo shippers. I can still see why you guys ship them.
true. I do agree. I loved this episode regardless though.
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Old 08-05-2014, 11:37 AM
  #29
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The PJ scene in this ep is one of the most magical scenes of the series imo. I still get chills every time I watch it.
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Old 08-05-2014, 12:05 PM
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I love the bracelet scene.
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