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Old 05-18-2017, 09:27 AM
Master Fan

bonnie51's Avatar
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,163
Originally Posted by FireQueen (View Post)
I guess we have to agree to disagree

Iris saved Caitlin from Peek-a-Boo. Even though it seems Caitlin has saved them or been asked to help them more times, it's only because she's a doctor and a meta.

The others don't have the same means and how risky a mission against Zoom could be for a human needs to be taken into consideration.
yes.... though that same risk is ignored when it applies to others. the powerless humans took on an ally of zoom's in the same episode.... so i'm not sure that's really any safer than trying to rescue someone from zoom? either action likely results in pissing zoom off.....

Caitlin hasn't been shown to help Joe, Iris or Wally out of the goodness of her heart. It was always because of her role as the team doctor. And saving someone means also acknowledging their suffering and offering emotional support.
yes and that's true. and largely, i don't have a problem as mentioned if they did have an issue with her keeping the stone or whatever, etc... just if she felt slighted or whatever, i'd have no problem with that either. basically, i don't buy the happy family star labs crap.

Did Caitlin ever go out of her way to support people not named Barry, Cisco or Julian? Iris acknowledged that Caitlin's future also needed to be changed in 3x10, told Barry that Caitlin was still out there in 3x19,
i'm not certain if mentioning something is entirely going out of your way for someone.....

the show is great at mentioning things for a line - someone is out there - someone needs rescuing - we need to focus on this too - and i've just become numbed to that, tbh. kind of like julian's questioning why no one was looking for kf...

while it's worth some brownie points... its more about actions anymore. the show uses throw away lines too often for me to really give a one off statement much credit. because while it was certainly nice and appreciated iris said those things... was there any real impact / follow up / action? by and large, not really. its kind of the same thing in some ways to barry saying he was going to save her in 3x19 and then really hasn't even tried. and that's fine because understandably, priorities. but while i understand that aspect of it... it also means that instead of saying awww... when there's a one life line or two lines about a character i roll my eyes because i know that was thrown in as a reminder of something the show really doesn't plan on actually showing.

which goes back to past conversations... if you want me to believe something, i need to see it. not every episode, not all the time. but more than once or twice in 23 episodes could be somewhat helpful.

and yes, that is a two way street. just as i don't think caitlain has any real reason to care about most of them... the same is also largely true. which again goes back to an earlier comment of not buying that all these people really like each other and consider themselves family, etc....

thanked her and encouraged her when she was trying to stop the decay from spreading.
yes, but admittedly, that was somewhat of self interest. not saying it wasn't genuine but her encouraging her when stopping the spread of decay was in some part based on self preservation. i'd have done the same thing, but it doesn't make it some big act.

Even though her contributions are more limited, in those instances Iris has shown more compassion towards Caitlin than the hero of the show. That's why I don't think she (or even Joe, Wally and HR) deserves Caitlin's anger and resentment as much as Barry.
that is true.. by far it is barry in the lead....... but will also say that i don't think it's at zero for everyone else... joe's actions, while not directly or intentional, lead to her dying. while they were completely understandable... i'd also find it understandable if said person who "died" was still a little... miffed? put off? i mean, with or without gypsy's interference while joe's desperation is understandable its also naive to think a villain's not going to try to break the deal as soon as he can and that could lead to someone else getting hurt.

Not only Caitlin hasn't shown to be that compassionate towards Iris, Joe and Wally, she actually worked against them when she kept that piece of the stone. She jeopardized Iris' safety even though at the time the handcuffs and necklace Cisco and Julian built were shown to be working.
yes - and again - if used, that could have made for some interesting drama and intrigue. there could have been a confrontation about that about her jeopardizing iris and about her potentially not trusting them to actually save her, etc... but instead.... nothing. which is kind of my larger point. the character basically amounts to........ nothing.

someone mentions something about her here or there. maybe something happens for an episode or so but nothing ever sticks. she's a scientist on a team with at least two other scientists - potentially 3-4 now - and a doctor for a group of super heroes.

Iris has everyone worried for the sole reason that Barry loves her.
largely true. i won't quite go 100% but largely true.

Caitlin is treated pretty well
i'm sorry but i have to laugh. a character where one "regular" cast member they interact with other than seasonal guest stars who routinely die - generally right in front of her -and or leave is not someone i'd ever consider to be treated pretty well.

i mean in reality...the villains of the series have had a greater need for her than the heroes.

grodd needed her help in trying to figure out to not be alone anymore.
zolomon had some weird need for her to choose him until he tried to kill her.
and now savitar has some need for her to do something for him

she has one actual relationship on the show - not counting julian since for $ if nothing else i doubt he's back just like ronnie, jay, someone in season 4, i'm sure...

Heck, Caitlin almost got a hug from Iris whose boyfriend had died minutes before!
you mean kinda like when caitlain watched "jay" get killed right in front of her and then i was implied everyone but cisco just up and left?

or when after nearly dying before technically "dying" this season, everyone just kind of up and left except cisco and the recurring character of the season?

or how again, how it was implied imo that they weren't ever really going to try to get her back from zoom? or every time something happens its "grodd won't hurt her" or "she's fine" etc... aka no big rush / deal.

i mean... she's still the only character who no we've never seen anyone else met their parents or remaining parent / family. we obviously met francine, cisco's parents/dante, henry, - she went off on her own and all we got was a line from cisco about what her mom said. and then was nearly turned into a science experiment.

so yeah... i probably wouldn't classify her as being treated pretty well just because she has one friend and is the default love interest for recurring gust stars and arguably might be the character who i see the most but does the least i might have ever seen on tv. the real secret of why they like her might be her ability to look depressed.

is she the most misuesed character in the history of tv? oh, hell no. there have been worse and probably will be worse, sadly, somewhere down the line.

but on this show? oh yeah. iris is an extremely close runner up. which is a travesty in its own right since that character and actress deserves so much more than to simply be the love interest of the hero of the show and should be a such better written character and more dynamic character than they clearly care to take the time and effort to develop and has had no POV time regarding her own potential death which is inexcusable in its own right - she falls to #2 on my big board of mistreated characters because while its not based on herself as a character entirely apart from being Barry's LI the show has clearly given an importance to the character which is as it should be.... but that also means she can't be #1 for me because again, while it's sadly not based just on the merits of her alone as a character - the show has established that the hero of the show can't function without her. i can't give her the top stop when that occurs. both are horribly written, both are terribly misused and both should be so much more than what the show allows them to be. the fact that its so close is a sad testament to how poorly and wrongly they have done iris west on this show.....

and here's the kicker. i literally dread caitlain's return. because for me, she's become such a pointless character. at this point i might actually be okay with only seeing her for 4 episodes a season like captain cold... i'd like more killer frost but if its as caitlain... 4 episodes is fine. it'd save me from watching her awkwardly flirt with next seasons love interest and free up cisco for more inevitable bro moments with wells or barry

i've got her down pat, i tell ya.

X Episode dialogue: "science science i'm smart science science i'm smart"

bend of episode to defeath villiain: "science, science, i'm so smart"


frown / stare. shrug. look depressed and or sad. repeat.

Now I'm back to being bitter over S2. This season is flawed but nothing beats the crap that was S2.
on the whole, i'm inclined to agree but i did enjoy parts of season 2. zoom, for all his flaws, was a much better villain imo.

All story short, the family line from Barry was definitely BS. There are "cliques" on the team. They all love Barry but the show has mostly failed to show the friendship and closeness between the characters outside of him. There's balance in how little they care for each other.
in this, we can agree

and just as i;'d have no problem with the west's having issue over the philosopher's stone, i have no issue if they would have gone the route of having killer frost channel some inner frustration of some kind.

it'd have been more beliveable, and probably more interesting than pretending that they all loved each other imo
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