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Old 05-17-2017, 03:02 PM
Master Fan

bonnie51's Avatar
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,163
Originally Posted by FireQueen (View Post)
I hope this thing with Savitar won't end up being really stupid and anticlimactic
unfortunately, it seems it might? i mean... under what circumstances... whether iris is alive or not... would barry be ok at all with savitar standing there?

I can't accept Killer Frost as a unexpected ally if she kills a main character, and by main character I mean someone in Barry's inner circle, a loved one. That didn't happen with Captain Cold. Arrow did it with Malcolm Merlyn and the character has overstayed his welcome.
agreed on MM... and the character in question was julian lol, at least in my mind. it'd complete her transformation to killer frost and not be super damaging to team flash.

If Iris had died and Killer Frost had had a hand in her demise, the last thing I would have wanted is for Barry to have occasional team-ups with her. No. He should have hated her like his future self did. And I would say the same if she killed Joe/Cisco/Wally, etc.
oh, agreed.

And I'm okay with her being like Captain Cold but we see him four times per season tops
yeah, but that's not saying it couldn't work. if there's 23 episodes in a season.... if they were so inclined you could see in a 5 episode arc, have her barely there or gone for 2, have her pop back up for 4-5 episodes, gone for 2-3, back again for 4ish, gone for a couple, and then back 21,22,23, etc...

so it is doable. and that is how i honestly would do it until such time came where i felt redeeming the character made more sense, if that time came or if having her become more of a subtle ally made sense.

I can understand this viewpoint if we are talking about Barry specifically but not so much if we are talking about the rest of the main cast.

The people who have been shown to care the most about Caitlin are Cisco and Julian. But then who are the people Caitlin cares the most for? Certainly not HR, Iris, Joe and Wally. If Caitlin is not shown to jump through hoops to "save" and comfort them then why should she have any anger and resentment towards them for not doing the same when she is the one in need?
i agree with there up to about 90%....

except she was asked to risk losing control to stop the spread of the decay or whatever from that metahuman with iris that julian talked her down from. and then the only reason barry confronted her in 3x07 was because it was about wally. he even said that he was there because he needed her help.
which is fine because they're heroes etc and its what they do and they all care for each other etc, etc...

my point is whether indirectly or directly, the show's even kind of voiced it from julian's credulity that no one was looking for her or depending on how you took it iris is "why would he choose to save caitlain?"

which i about died of laughter from because i'm a) i'm jaded and b was the response that he must need something from her. which of course, is true. but rather than an "idk" or shrug it was stated as fact like that was the only reason. like it was a surprise that he would decide to save her... and i know that's probably not he the way the show intended it to appear...

there's no denying that the show clearly has her interact mostly with cisco/care for and vice versea and that's fine. but there have been instances where she's saved or been asked to save and while admittedly, its not like she's done it 25 times.... its still there.

and the funny thing is the same thing happened with KF on earth two. after she ultimately turns on zoom... they just kind of leave her.

and there clearly was zero effort to get her back from zoom. make plans to trick criminals and meta humans around town and track down a angry meta human who took wells when powerless? yep. come up with a plan to stop reverb? yep.

other than cisco vibing and saying she was "fine" shackled to a bed, etc... there was no clear plan. or when she was at the police station and they knew where she was... nodda. zoom literally let her go. and then she gets the joy of watching him kill her hologrpahic self to help defeat him.

its telling that outside of joe and cisco resucing her from cold and heat wave in season one... well, that's kinda been it. and that's kind of my point. while heaven and earth have been moved to save other characters - and that's fine because they should be saved as well - i can't treat caitlain like a valued member of the team when she's only saved when it suits them, the plot cares for it or nothing / no one more important is in danger.

go to E2 to save someone we never met? check.
go there to save someone we supposedly care about? nope. try to come up with a plan of sneaking someone out of a police station where two of us work and others have been many times? nope. ok.

i understand and accept the why and how of it and it actually does not bother me in terms of her placement - other than that then they act when the plot calls for it like she's important to them etc and i just call BS.

general reaction in season 2 and 3 when saving caitlain is mentioned

and that's fine. but then don't pretend like it's that important that she's there is all i'm saying. the show can't have it both ways. it can't have the a recurring character and cisco be the only ones showing any outward interest in saving her or have any real concern and then have me not laugh when barry tries calling them all a family. picture A does not match picture B.

Now with Barry is different because he is the lead and has shown flashes of selfishness and carelessness. I love Barry but it's true. Neither the show nor Caitlin share this viewpoint though.
valid mostly but again, it kind of does. be either there being no effort to get her back from zoom or no real interest in saving her this season - or shall i say making it a priority - then it kind of does. which is why i reject the idea that she has to be there. i wouldn't have after season one and the first half of season 2.... but its where i'm at now.

the real reason caitlain is coming back is because then the show can continue to do nothing. it requires little time and effort to have someone play the sad scientist.

which is totally fine. but then i ask the show not to expect me to believe that she has to be there in order for the team to function or that not having her there as caitlain damages it in anyways.

The Killer Frost episode was the exception
not really. because

a) it showed that caitlain understood that on same level, dr. alchemy was a better bet for getting rid of her powers than team flash. in some ways she didn't trust them enough to stick around, telling cisco "i'm the one whose going to have to leave soon". now, i know how that line was meant but when coupled with her search for dr. alchemy for a cure rather than asking for help... in a lot of ways IMO tragically shows she understands where she is on the food chain to me. it can be taken that she didn't want to hurt any of them but also that she didn't really trust any of them. she kept it a secret and other than cisco finding out - only trusted her mom with the truth. to me, that screams that the character has some understanding of where she ranks when the two people she goes to for help are a villain and a person she has an adverse relationship with.

b) even the scene in the pipe line.... wasn't about her. the only reason barry went down there was because as he himself said, he needed her help. so that scene, while i think well done, wasn't even about her. it was about needing her to save wally.
and the scene where julian talks her down happens because they needed her to save iris. so none of that happens without them needing something from her, it wasn't really about her.

now, would that scenario have eventually played out? perhaps, but perhaps not. in that UA where wally's fine? potentially but we'll never know. my point is was even that... wasn't about her character. they needed something from her is why that happened.

Should Wally, Joe and Iris resent her for that?
honestly? i'd have no problem if they did. just as her having resentment and hatred for some of the stuff mentioned for the past two seasons makes sense, so would have that. and might have made for compelling television.

though again - outside of joe - none of them have ever saved her to my knowledge. she hasn't saved them a ton buts it still an edge in her favor, however relatively small the sample side is - i think 3-0 or 3-1? since iris did assist julian in the surgery - even if caitlain basically operated on herself to some degree.


the cliff hanger could be good. i have doubts... and yeah, cisco/julian clearly care but that kind of makes my point. where the two characters who interact with you are okay, cisco, that's a plus and someone who in all likelihood won't be back past this season and the previous season you interacted most with another character whose a one and done....

then i just don't see where you're not lower on the totem pole, so to speak


while i agree that was the motivation for barry/iris etc... anyone who watched season 2 and most of season one already knew that... which is why it didn't make sense to me from that point to devote an entire season to something that ultimately wasn't going to happen to show something fans of season 1 and 2 already knew? i just don't see the logic in that. a 4-5 or 6-7 episode arc... okay... that i guess can work to reinforce her importance... but an entire season right after the end of last season declared her his lightening rod, etc... if it had ever been in question?
~People who think they know everything are of great annoyance to those of us who do~

Last edited by bonnie51; 05-17-2017 at 03:41 PM
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