Hello to you both! I'm Gwen, it's lovely to meet you
I had to take some time away from FanForum due to hectic real-life stuff, but I'll try to be here as much as I can
I've had several re-watches of The Borgias recently, so I enjoy discussing the show and Cesare's relationship with Lucrezia, which has SO many layers.
Yes I was a HUGE Brucas fan!
Always will be. I maintain that Brooke was the best thing that ever happened to Lucas, and he was only bearable with her. One Tree Hill died a fiery death when Mark Schwahn brought back the duo from hell (namely Lucas and Peyton)
I used to be on the OTH board and the Dawson's Creek boards a lot, but all the fights and the shipper wars used to drive me insane
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Wow, I totally agree with everything you said! Although I do think that killing Juan off at the end of season 2 might not have been too soon, as Juan was killed prior to Cesare's ascent to becoming a military leader. And at least Juan made it to the end of season 2. On the other Borgia series, they killed him off at the end of season 1. |
I think I'm being selfish because I missed David Oakes a lot in Season 3
I agree that Juan's death made for a great season finale, and The Confession is one of the very best episodes; Jeremy Irons' portrayal of grief is top-notch in those scenes
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David Oakes was sorely missed in season 3, but it was fascinating to see Juan's slow descent into self destruction. And while his syphilis probably contributed a lot to his erratic behavior near the end of his life, he killed Paolo before he contracted the disease, so he was already pretty cruel to begin with. Remember that scene where Lucrezia dropped that chandelier on him and his lover while they were in bed? That was before he left for Spain, which is where he contracted syphilis. But he only got progressively worse from that point on, especially when he began taking opium. But you're right, I do wish his syphilis had been discovered by his family, but I'm not sure if it would've even made a difference by then. Cesare and Lucrezia both pretty much wanted him dead either way.
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One thing that saddened me about the depiction of Juan's downfall in the show was how it caused friction between him and Lucrezia beyond repair. I didn't think it made sense how the show transitioned from the light-hearted scenes between Juan and Lucrezia when they walked arm-in-arm around the city in 'Paolo' to the 'she's ready to kill him' death stare in episode 3... Yes I know that what he did to Paolo was cruel, but I think Juan genuinely believed that it was his right, as a Borgia, to rid Paolo from their lives. He believed that his sister's lover brought shame to the family, and the only answer (in his eyes) was to make sure he would never return. Did he go too far? Sure, but I think his biggest mistake was actually the public hanging, which was carelessly done. Juan was always trying to preserve the family name, and the illegitimate child brought a question mark upon the longevity of their family's security at the top. Maybe I'm reaching for excuses, but Juan always struck me as someone who believed the family was at risk unless all immediate threats were eliminated, and that's clearly how he viewed Paolo.
It's a tragedy that nobody will ever know how ill Juan was before his death, they just thought he was a selfish jerk with no respect for his family
And somehow, despite the terrible thing he did to Paolo, it bothers me that neither one of his siblings considered the reasons why Juan was so cold and self-destructive by the time he died. He just becomes a burden to them, and the ENEMY, which I felt was highly forced and done simply to paint him as the villain who must be stopped (similar to Fredo in
The Godfather).
I think Season 3 should have explored into Cesare's guilt over killing his brother. It's only really touched upon in moments with Rodrigo who misses him terribly, and that scene in episode 9 where Alfonso asks him "did you love your brother" and Cesare replies "immensely" (or something to that effect). Neil Jordan molds Cesare into such a dark Prince character that the only person who truly means anything to him in the end is Lucrezia - which, although is truthful to their love, is quite tragic in other aspects.
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Thank you so much for stating how terribly underused Vanozza and Joanne Whalley was on this show. While I do think she was a valuable character, she could've been used a lot more than she was.
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I always thought it was weird how they fazed her out in the middle of the show's run. However, at least she was remembered by people - unlike their younger brother, the 13 year old who was married to some undeserving woman and never heard from again after season one
I love how Francois was so committed to developing the Cesare and Lucrezia relationship, watch any Borgias interview and he's so giddy by the time it happens
I still wonder if Neil Jordan actually meant it when he said in the beginning that they didn't intend to go down the incest route, or whether he wanted to throw viewers off the scent and wait until the characters were truly ready to explore that side of themselves. Both Holly and Francois saw the undertones in his writing as much as anyone, and even Mario Puzo wrote 'The Godfather' had written a book called 'The Family' that did not shy away from making Ceare and Lucrezia lovers.
Even Cesare's obsession with Ursula screamed 'rebound' to me
His anger over Lucrezia's marriage and then distracting himself with an unattainable woman, all felt very forced on Cesare's part in his effort to ignore his pain over losing Lucrezia.
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But it's true that if we had gotten Jordan's "Apocalypse," we would've gotten a story that completely contradicted everything that had been established in the first three seasons.  Cesare and Lucrezia were like totally different people in that script, and I agree that Jordan just didn't seem to care anymore.
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That's why I'm relieved in some ways that the show ended when it did. You wonder how the writers will treat the characters if it goes on any longer. The same issue arose with 'Veronica Mars', another great show with a strong female lead, it was cancelled after Season 3 and due to how rushed it was, none of the storylines really get resolved, but it thankfully ends with a finale episode that points the way to a reunion between Veronica and her long-time love Logan that was the missing ingredient of most of that season. I often fear where Season 4 would have taken them - they had already broken up about a dozen times during the show and how often can you do that before viewers get bored and move on? Neil Jordan's treatment of Cesare and Lucrezia was so poorly handled in The Borgia Apocalypse that I think it strongly indicates how lucky we actually were to get a series finale that respected them as much as The Prince did.
I was thinking about my favorite Cesare + Lucrezia moments, it's difficult to narrow them down but here's some of the best:
1) Their love scene. I think it was extraordinary, the score and the slow motion allowed to be a TRUE LOVE scene rather than yet another sleazy sex scene and it was so erotic how they looked straight into each other's eyes and how happy they looked in the final moments
2) 'Relics' was kind of an average episode, but I think their scene together raised the standards because it was beautifully done. The visual image of just the two of them, lost amongst the crowd in the dark, standing in the backdrop of fireworks, and disclosing the honest truth that they are both in marriages of convenience and will never be truly happy or in love with anyone but each other.
3) Their reunion in season 3 episode 9, wow they're just all over each other with hugs and kisses and neither of one of them care that they're being watched by others, including her husband
4) Cesare carrying Lucrezia to her bed after she's married her first husband. Everyone else is enjoying the dinner & entertainment, but all Cesare is concerned with is a sleepy Lucrezia and taking her away from the noisy adults
5) Episode 4 of Season 3. I have such mixed feelings about how Cesare goes into denial mode about their future together, but his devastated expression when she says "I want you" at the consummation says it all, his calming kiss when she's yelling at him is so indicative of her words "God is in the room with us" and of course, the actual (awkward as hell) consummation when Alfonso doesn't even exist to Lucrezia and she only achieves orgasm when she looks into Cesare's eyes... Seriously, they are connected on every conceivable level in that scene that you just know how Cesare is lying to himself afterwards when he's like "we're in the past, let's move on" yeah whatever Cesare!!!
