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Old 03-07-2016, 02:40 PM
  #10
AsgardianJane
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Originally Posted by jarlath1 (View Post)
Essentially, it is really a disagreement about what this show, Dawson’s Creek, was about. To most D/J shippers I have spoken to, the show is about the idea of a soulmate, explored through the story of Dawson and Joey. That is essentially what the show is trying to address. Personally, I think the idea of a soulmate, while a nice one, has no basis in reality. I am prepared to accept that in fictional universes, the idea has traction. In Dawson’s Creek, it was the abiding idea.
I'd agree with that in so far as Kevin's vision of the show in Season 1 and 2. It broadened in 3 and 4 to the point where they have Andie say the focus is on Pacey, Joey and Dawson. 'You always go back to those that were there at the beginning and in the beginning it was the three of you'. In the final episode you'll notice the Capeside musical theme that was the first music cue of the pilot doesn't appear until Dawson, Joey and Pacey meet up. The idea being that 'We're back home, we are back to the beginning'.

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Related to this fundamental idea of the soulmate – for which Dawson and Joey were the example used to work the idea through – were the many warnings that if soulmates don’t end up together, they will live an unfulfilled life. This is an idea repeatedly returned to throughout the series (in other couples like the two on Witches’ Island, for example), but perhaps most significantly in the Season 4 A. I. Brooks character. The man who actually married Brooks’ soulmate returns to tell Dawson, and indeed tell the viewers, that the three people involved in that triangle had made a mistake. Brooks did not marry his soulmate – she married their friend, and while that marriage was reasonably happy it
wasn’t what should have happened and that, if there is an afterlife Brooks and his soulmate will be together. This is a key storyline in a season where Joey has ‘chosen’ someone other than her soulmate. The clear (indeed, only) implication of this is to put a gigantic red sign over Pacey/Joey to indicate that: this is a bad idea. Soulmates, whose destinies are connected forever, whose lives are bound up in each other. And who should choose each other because if they don’t, they will lives ultimately unfulfilled lives. The suggestion here is that Dawson could end up like Brooks, and Joey end up like Brooks’ soulmate, ultimately regretting the bad choices they make.
Witch Island was purposely vague about whether the girl was rescued or not. Joey the cynic doesn't believe she was. Dawson the dreamer romantic believes she was. Its as much an exploration of their worldviews as anything.

I never got the impression the love triangle with AI Brooks' was meant that way. It reinforces the specialness of First Love and that there is a part of the other person you just can't have but how many people marry their first loves? Brooks' best friend is as much a warning to Dawson as anything. Brooks didn't mend his relationship with his friend until his death, he lost everything by holding onto that grudge. As much as Dawson is like Brooks, Pacey is like his friend. Self defeatist. The woman doesn't get a say, there is nothing to say she regretted her decision. He mentions they had three children and a good life. Its the same episode Pacey and Joey sleep together, maybe we are meant to see the woman's decision through Joey's. Pacey even echos Brooks' friend.

Brooks' friend: Still, all that time, he had that part of her soul you give your first love.

Pacey: What I am scared of is that little piece of your heart that will always belong to Dawson leery.

If we are meant to take Joey's response in tandem with this dead woman's:
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Dawson: Yeah, me, too. You know what? I feel like I'm doing the right thing. That's the strangest part.
Joey: What do you mean?
Dawson: I mean...At some point it...Ha... The whole thing just becomes too much for your brain to process, you know, and all you have to rely on is your heart and natural human instincts. And it's liberating. I mean, it's terrifying at first, but... I guess that's the point, isn't it?
Joey: What's that?
Dawson: If we weren't so afraid to let go, we wouldn't feel so free when we finally did.
Joey: You make it sound so simple.
Dawson: Ha. It's anything but that. But I think that's what brooks is waiting for. You know, even in his state, I think he was... He was waiting for his friend.
Joey: To say good-bye?
Dawson: Something like that.
Joey: That can be really hard.
Dawson: Yeah. [Long Pause]
Dawson: Good-bye, Joey.
Joey: Good night, Dawson.
She wasn't holding on. She let go. She followed her heart and did what she felt was right. That scene wouldn't be nearly as powerful if DJo had ended up together in my opinion. But that is me.

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The many and various references to other pop culture texts where the ‘wrong choice’ was made (essentially, where the soulmate was not chosen), such as Les Mis, Little Women and Pretty in Pink, also situated Dawson’s Creek as a kind of ‘correction’ which would put things to right.
I never connected Little Women before, Jo doesn't marry Laurie the boy next door. I struggled through that book as a kid. I never read the sequel but I remember the movie, its never represented as a fault on Jo's part despite the fan outrage of the time. Maybe the book is different? I also don't recall Molly Ringwald getting judged for not choosing Duckie in the film. I have never seen Les Mis.

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First Off, we disagree on the severity of the first two arguments mentioned. You say That's fine. Its the least interesting part of what we are discussing!
My point is: no, this is where you start going wrong (probably because you don’t recognise the show’s premise in the soulmate idea). Why do soulmates break up with each other – that is the question posed by Season 2. The answer is – because they get together at the wrong time. Joey needs to figure herself out. Season 1 is about Dawson coming to a realisation; Season 2 is about Joey coming to a realisation. Joey has so many issues in her own life to confront that she cannot be in a healthy relationship. She really should have gone to Paris at the end of Season 1 and started to confront them there. In Season 3, as Dawson explains, Pacey becomes Paris (‘Pacey is this year’s Paris’), and she needs to choose to go to Paris in order to figure out that she has everything she wants at home (which is why ‘Feels Like Home’ is a song to which Season 2 Dawson and Joey reconcile). Joey is constantly trying to escape home because it is where she feels her life and her identity fall apart. Dawson is intimately tied up in this identity crisis for her. It is why she constantly talks about getting away. And she needs to in order to see, as Dawson tells her in the last episode before the finale, that she had everything she wants waiting for her all the time (‘I like how you see me’). By the end of Season 6, tragically for Pacey/Joey shippers, Pacey was not even Paris. Paris was Paris again (in that silly montage sequence) with the implication that Joey would find out once there that actually she wanted to come home (and to everything that ‘home’ signified to her). That is the series arc, with the final 15 minutes of the finale throwing in the spanner to suggest that Joey still hadn’t worked it out. Maybe the death of close friend just heightens feelings of vulnerability for her again, and Pacey/Paris becomes momentarily attractive as a distracting mechanism. As Pacey well knows, however, she will never have that soulmate kind of love for him (he explicitly asks her about this in Season 3, and her silence tells him everything he really needed to know). And the soulmate kind of love is what this series is most invested in. if viewers don’t see this investment, and are distracted by the initial sexual chemistry between Josh Jackson and Katie Holmes, that is to miss the main thing this show is interested in.
If you really want to get aboard the soulmate train Kevin Williamson does think Pacey and Joey are soulmates. They do fit it down the the letter throughout the series, intentionally or not. Dawson mentions how just knowing your soulmate is out there is enough, it brings comfort which is then echoed by Pacey later 'the act of being in love with you is enough for me'. I'm not even sure its intentional and it would be kind of funny if it wasn't as so much of PJo is an accident!
I think between these two vids, they pretty much have the clips right
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK8DIW_v7SU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub2LLbqloow

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You’re missing a lot here. Dawson is right: she is still in the existential crisis of Season 2 (I would make the case that none of the characters ever get over Season 2). Joey is not trying to get out of Dawson’s ‘shadow’. She is trying to figure out who is she is independent of her love of him. That is a completely different kind of struggle. Dawson grows up completely confident about who he is, has great and supportive parents who tell him he’s great. Etc. etc. He doesn’t have much of an identity problem for a lot of the time. Joey does for obvious reasons.

You have completely misconstrued Pacey’s comment in Season 2 ‘Crossroads’. Again, he does not want to get out of Dawson’s influence – he wants to stop being a supporting character in the Dawson/Joey show. Who can blame him. And he gets his own show – with Andie McPhee. Sadly, in Season 3, he goes back to once again being a supporting character in the Dawson/Joey roadshow, though he makes a determined effort to take over the lead role this time (relegated again to supporting role by the end of Season 4). It is one of the tragedies of the Pacey character arc. For a brief while in Season 2 he develops his own storyline, before throwing himself under the bus again in Season 4 (as Jen points out in Season 6, she and Pacey – and Jack – are just roadkill in the Dawson and Joey show).
Joey is very clearly trying to extricate herself from his shadow. Note another Pacey and Joey parallel:

Joey: I mean, our lives have always been so intertwined that in many ways I feel like you partially invented me, Dawson. And that scares me so much. I need to find out if I can be a whole person without you. I need to find out if I can be a whole person....alone.

Pacey: You know, if I'm loyalty, Dawson, it's only 'cause you cast me in the role. You're the storyteller, you know? You see everything and figure out what it means. Did you see the look on those kids' faces while you were telling them that story tonight? How caught up they were? You're the guy who builds this fantastic world. You just let the rest of us live in it.

It sets Dawson up as the director of their lives. He's casting them into the space he wants them, he's writing their lines, and he's about to discover in that last one that the characters aren't playing by the script.

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Joey’s mother is always in the back of her mind. The death of Abbie was cathartic for her because it made her (after a season of trying to ‘find herself’) confront and accept her mother’s death. That was why it was so crucial for her to bring Dawson with her to her mother’s grave. This is the moment when her family is healed and her relationship with Dawson can actually develop properly (and why the building of the white picket fence by Dawson is crucial (beside the fact that Joey finds a sweaty Dawson incredibly sexy) – this is a show that actually believes in white picket fences for soulmates). The everything comes crashing down and Joey will make bad choices for the rest of the seasons.
The white picket fence is definitely representative, its used earlier in the season when Jen pukes on one. Is it necessarily a good thing? Does Joey want to be fenced in? Joey wants to get out of Capeside after all. Here is Dawson fencing her in. It is also symbolic of Joey's semblance of regular family suburban life coming together but it will be destroyed by the end because her father isn't the type of man to live a 'White Picket Fence' sort of life. That isn't who Joey is either, that is Dawson with his perfect family. Joey is an outcast from the wrong side of the creek. She doesn't do white picket fences but I do agree its also one of those things Joey aspires to because of what it represents. She wants to be something she is not for a long time.

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These things don’t need to be explicitly laid down with a trowel! The viewer should have by that time already gathered that Joey has clear issues with her father and these are bound up with Dawson (because her mother used to look at her father the same way Dawson looks at Joey – another indication that soulmates really can mess each other up if they don’t watch it – by going off with someone else…remind us of anyone (Joey with Pacey, perhaps?) – and cause incredible hurt). We get it (or should) and shouldn’t need constant reminders.
If Mr and Mrs Potter were soulmates we are all doomed. He was a philandering criminal. He slept with other women while she had terminal cancer. I don't see what you mean about Joey and Pacey here. They never cheated on each other and didn't cheat on anyone with each other. I think you are stretching with the looks things. Mr Potter can tell Joey's feelings for Dawson because she looks at Dawson like her mother looked at him sure but that is only mentioned in one episode, its not a motif carried through. Joey looks like her mother.

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I don’t think we are in huge disagreement here about Joey behaving out of character many many times in the later seasons – as I said, the only way to make sense of these incidences is to see Joey as still working through the ramifications of Season 2. I don’t accept she makes sense with AJ (another character who eventually chooses his soulmate over his casual fling), except that he is a distraction. The show points this up when it indicates that she tries her best to experience the northern lights with him RATHER than Dawson (just to prove to herself that she can), but then the plot works it so that she does indeed watch them with Dawson (becaue this is a show that genuinely believes that some love is written in the stars – corny, but this is what the show believes).
Joey doesn't actively tries to avoid the Northern Lights with AJ. He kisses her and she goes running to Pacey. The particles unable to resist. But she does end up seeing them with Dawson which was 'typical'. I guess she means big events in her life always seem to have Dawson around.

You say that AJ goes to his soulmate and you compare this to Dawson and Joey. The episode pulls a bait and switch though and we realise the comparisons are about Joey and Pacey. Joey is of course oblivious to this until the kiss at the end. An international channel did a great little 'spell it out' trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmgmnvllKLs

You've also got things like 'Don't let the friendly banter fool you, we really hate each other' and 'He's buys you paper and demands that you be yourself' (You bought me a wall?). Joey is relating them to her and Dawson when what is actually going on is Joey and Pacey. 'The loudest sound of all, love unspoken', spoken by episode's close. I can be forgiving of AJ as he is clearly there only to serve a bigger storyline.

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I’m not sure I’ve ever bought the claim that Pacey was ‘real’ as opposed to Dawson being ‘unreal’, but even if we were to grant this, the claim that Joey should choose Pacey because he represents reality ignores the basic premise of the show which is that fantasy really does trump reality in a world in which there are such things as star crossed lovers, destinies, soulmates, etc. etc. (and where the consequences of choosing someone other than your soulmate are laid out as a life of perpetual restlessness and feelings unfulfillment). Pacey is, in any case, far from ‘real’ – he’s the guy who wants to play the hero in a fantasy in which he is always coming to save the day. It’s sweet, but it isn’t ‘real’. Now is not the time to get into disputing the claim that Dawson wants to live a 1950’s lifestyle (which bears no connection to Dawson’s very 1980s Speilberg version of fantasy. Pacey is usually wrong when he criticises Dawson. At worst Dawson is the kind of fantasist that Frank Capra represents as drawn out by their discussion of this filmmaker – who has had a huge influence on Speilberg – in Season 2, where Jen basically misunderstands Capra while Dawson explains how this version of fantasy actually works – it’s a version of fantasy that does indeed believe in soulmates, and destiny – Some Kind of Wonderful – but does not deny the darkness of the world, the – hint hint – Mr. Potters who almost ruin things [at times I wondered whether the signposting could be any more explicit, but Pacey/Joey shippers appear oblivious to them in their complete commitment to a version of the show which consigns Dawson to Neverland)). Both he and Joey believe in a kind of sweet, romantic comedy, soulmate world which this series was supposed to be about to oppose the cynical alternatives in other shows. Joey is a true believer. The arc of the series is about how Joey realises that this is the script in which she makes sense – not the script where a different kind of fantasy entirely (a fantasy called ‘Paris’ or ‘Pacey’ operates). The notion that Pacey is not a ‘fantasy’ for her, in bizarre. He is just a different kind of fantasy – and, the show repeatedly emphasises, the wrong one (wrong for him, too, given that their relationship almost destroys him…twice).
The show disavows Neverland at the end of Season 1 when Dawson was supposed to get out of his Peter Pan phase. It never really happens. We are meant to see the deconstruction of Dawson's fantasy life, his mother is cheating on his father, his friend knew, his best friend seems to be outshining him, his girlfriend isn't the virginal princess he thought she was, kisses aren't perfect moments, human interaction can't be determined by tropes etc...

Joey is not a natural believer in Dawson's fantasy, she spends a lot of season 1 trying to get Dawson to see the world around him. 'Clap harder Dawson, you may be Tinkerbell's last hope', she falls into his dreams when she kisses him. Suddenly she had what she wanted, maybe wishes do come true but that fades again and by season 3 she's the cynic again.

What fantasy is Pacey? A Cinderella Story clearly puts Pacey in the role of 'real thing' which is done again in the finale. He does have a Knight in Shining Armour complex but it usually ends with him beaten and in serious trouble.

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I’m not sure exactly why anyone thinks this is in any way ambiguous, since, as Joey tells us in ‘Coda’, the magic with Pacey (magic – the kind of magic/fantasy Pacey represents) has worn off, while that with Dawson has always persisted. The notion that Joey hadn’t thought about Dawson ‘in that way’ since Witch Island is, I’m afraid, simply not true. The sexual tension between them in many many episodes of Season 4 was obvious even to Pacey who resented it big time. Even Drue noticed the ‘sexual tension’ between them, the couple so much in love that it makes everyone want to puke. Basically, all the other characters in the show could see that Dawson and Joey loved each other more than they loved anyone else – every other character (the scene in the finale when Joey asks those gathered around her table who she is supposed to be with, and everyone looks at her with a bit of disbelief that she doesn’t get it yet – and claiming that they mean Pacey won’t work since one of those around the table is Bessie, who was always one of the cheerleaders for Dawson, and also given that when he wrote that part of the script, KW hadn’t yet changed his mind).
Again, you are assuming that what Joey says is not true. Do we have any reason to believe she's lying in her essay in The Bostonians? At least Joey is coming off a horrendous break up, the realities of their future being too much at that time.

Drue was there to cause trouble, he tried everything to get at Joey and Pacey until he hit on Pacey's insecurities when he took him drinking. He would say anything, just like Abby Morgan when talked about the Joey/Dawson kiss. She's trying to provoke a reaction. Same with Drue, that is their function. He wanted Joey and Pacey broken up the entire time, just like he tried to use sex in A Winter's Tale or Andie in Great Xpectations and Anna. Every trick in the book. Joey and Dawson weren't actually voted class couple.

I agree that in Part 1 of the finale everything points to DJo. Bessie was in for a shock!

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This is rewriting history. At the start of season 5, Joey is hoping for a renewed relationship with Dawson, a renewed romantic relationship. This looks like it is going to happen, and then Mitch dies and puts the skids on it. Next things she knows, Dawson is showing up with Jen as his girlfriend. Joey feels jealous – not resentful that she is not Dawson’s friend any longer. Again, I’ve not met anyone who ever claimed that Joey was not jealous (in a romantic sense) of Dawson and Jen’s relationship in Season 5 (the writers probably thought they could regenerate Season 1 dynamics at this stage…They couldn’t). This romantic jealousy is confirmed repeatedly to banal degree at every stage of this series – Joey cannot bear to have Dawson show a romantic interest in anyone other than her. Again, I thought this was just obvious, and that even Joey/Pacey shippers knew this - and it rightly irritated them greatly.
How can it be rewriting history when I'm asking you to notice what the character actually says. Joey actually says these things to Pacey. Why must we assume she is lying? Does she show a similar problem with Natasha? We also have to remember Joey's comments about Dawson being a safety blanket and they need to let go. Which is consistent with her arc in Season 3 and 4 away from him. Does she want him or as she says in 'Appetite for Destruction' is he what she's supposed to want. This is a girl who has everyone telling her all paths lead to Dawson, she doesn't want what she's supposed to.

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There may be a universe where Pacey, who really really wishes Joey would feel a kind of ‘soulmate’ love for him, is not insecure about her relationship with Dawson. In the finale he says something like ‘I hope we are beyond that now’ (which signals that indeed they were not beyond it even 5 years earlier). One of the reasons he so desperately wants to sleep with Joey is that he hopes that once that happens he will have a claim on her (a ‘first’) that Dawson won’t have, and is bitterly disappointed to find that even after this, she is still drifting back to him – that she is at her happiest hanging around with Dawson, and not with him. It is sad, desperately so, that Pacey/Paris (and don’t forget the Romeo/Juliet references abounding in the series) doesn’t get their role as a supporting player – because supporting players end up as roadkill in this series. It is important to note that the 100th episode which was a kind of summation of what the series was about, had a series of flashbacks relating to Dawson/Joey’s relationship, not Joey/Pacey whose scenes merely served as a kind of bump on the road of that primary relationship. Charlie and Eddie are other, less significant bumps, though Joey would choose Eddie over Pacey (probably because Eddie is a bit closer to Dawson).
'I hope we're beyond that now' doesn't state when they got beyond it. Pacey so desperately wants to sleep with Joey? He's waited 9 months, its getting weird. He's been that patient. Of course he wants to sleep with her, he loves her. But it does give him comfort that she shared her first time with him and not Dawson. Pacey is a man of action, not words, it proved to him that she really wants him and not Dawson Leery. You act like Pacey is such a predator!

I'd say Eddie is 30% Dawson in that he is a writer, who sits in on classes he 'shouldn't be in', and who ends up going to California. He's not at all like Dawson in personality.

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You’ve seen a different show. You must have. Joey and Dawson are building up to having sex in season 2 (‘they won’t be the poster children for virginity for much longer’ Abbie astutely recognises), and if they had not bumped into Jen on the way home from the wedding they would have had sex. She offers to have sex with him at the start of Season 3, yes to get him back, but not because she doesn’t want to – she’s ready. Now you are comparing characters (Joey and Jen!!!) trying it on with Dawson. However, Jen was in a crazed depression in Season 3; Joey wasn’t. There is never any indication that Joey doesn’t find Dawson sexually attractive (she has thought about his penis size long before they ever get together, and enthusiastically gets into the make out phase of their relationship when they start going out).
Did you see when they were in the little rowboat at the end of season 2 and Joey says she considered sex but she felt they were too young? I'm not making that up, its right there. Joey didn't feel ready to have sex in season 2 and that is that, front her own mouth. If the show was heading towards them sleeping together in season 2 it would have happened. Yes, I am comparing Joey and Jen in situations that are a lot more specific than reactions post sex. Joey and Jen had broken up with Dawson, they'd been through some huge crisis and wanted Dawson back. They both saw sex as a way to do that and he turned both of them down. Both were not in the right state of mind at all and were using sex as a means to an end rather than as an emotional fulfilling experience. Losing your virginity in a desperate attempt to get a high school boyfriend back is a very realistic teen thing to do but its not good and its not portrayed as good in either case.

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The evidence for Joey and Pacey having a great sex life that you provide are a couple of funny scenes, in one of which Pacey does most of the talking. Again, you need to place everything into the context of the arc of the season, and the series, or things will be misunderstood. Pacey’s neediness in bed is highlighted by their the-morning-after-the-night before conversation, where he signalled to her that for him a great deal depended on whether she liked having sex with him. In this context alone, Joey feels pressure to tell him that everything is alright down there, nothing is wrong. Andie, I expect, would just have told him what she liked and what she didn’t. Joey just doesn’t know how to communicate with Pacey (probably because she is so used to Dawson understanding her so quickly and her understanding him so easily – ‘I hear you Dawson’ ‘I hear you too Joey’).
Yes, they are funny scenes, and cute but that doesn't make them untrue. The writers are playing two characters in love who love exploring this new phase of their relationship. They are having fun. The sexy banter later is cute too

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You know, when I told you that whole thing about telling me what you want, I didn't really expect a request to come in writing

You're trying to get rid of me. You had your way with me, my conversation has grown tiresome, and now you're giving me the boot.
And she's wearing his robe and liking that he likes it. The problem isn't the sex, there is a shift in tone at the end of that episode as it becomes apparent she lied about it. What is interesting is the switcheroo, you think the lie is going to end them but its not.

Pacey is a teenage boy insecure about whether he 'performed well'. Give him a break, he was tactless and inconsiderate but it wasn't anything more than that. And you may be forgetting that Joey is actually very honest with Pacey in Four Stories. Listen to her dialogue again, she won't remember the clumsy positioning or the awkward morning after she'll remember how when he was on top of her he made her feel like he would always be there to protect her.

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Again, you are missing the context of the season as a whole, and all the emphases on soulmates going on in other parts of the plot, in your comments about Worthington. The context is the slow, ‘conscious uncoupling’ of Pacey and Joey, and the reconnection between Dawson and Joey. That is what is happening through the whole season! Pacey at the Worthington dinner is just another example of how they don’t work together. Pacey managed to embarrass her completely by accident (that is what I meant by my claim that she was embarrassed to be with him), with the implication that Dawson would never have made her feel like she didn’t belong. I’m not saying Pacey wanted to make her feel that way – I’m sure the opposite was the case – but that is how she felt.
Joey was embarrassed by herself. Look at the start of the episode and the way she is treated at the club. That she'll be serving and not attending. She feels low class. Then she gets the location of the gallery wrong which makes her feel even more low class. Not everything is about Dawson. Meanwhile Pacey is charming the pants off everyone. And we have this speech here:

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Joey: Well, I think I blew it tonight. And it's just, um, this is kind of a whole new world for me, and I, um, I don't really know what to do or what to say, and I know that I don't fit in very well
Walter: Joey, you didn't blow anything. Your academic record stands on its own. You're a stunningly bright young lady. No one is grading you on your social skills. Be that as it may, you couldn't ask for a better character witness than that boyfriend of yours. Seriously. He just talked the Dean's ear off, all about you. How you've changed him, how you've helped him. How he couldn't imagine a better life than one with you by his side. What a rare gift, to have someone say such things about you.
If your intention is to show two people woefully mismatched don't have someone tell your leading lady that. Even more, don't have your leading lady say

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Joey: She raised a perfect boy. And maybe things like that just tumble out of my mouth because I happen to be head over heels in love with you, but the scary thing is, I think it's true.
You take everything as a signal of doom. They are in a relationship, a year long one. They have fights, they have insecurities, they have ups and downs. Even after their massive break up blow out, they work it out very quickly. They just can't stay mad at each other, likely a lifetime of practice there. Pacey and Joey are very strong, planning long term up until Graduation stares them in the face. There is something Jen says in episode 3 about whether 2 teenagers can sustain a relationship and Pacey and Joey do damn well until the nature of being a teenager rears its ugly head. You're not done yet, you need your independence to do what you have to do to be the person you become. You can't define your life based on someone else at 17 or 18.

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It wouldn’t have happened, the suggestion is, had she been with the person who knows her best (Dawson – who writes the essay for her). I’m not going to comment on the attempted character assassination of Dawson – because it seems to me that this is usually what Pacey/Joey shippers fall back on. They just don’t like Dawson and don’t like the way he behaves and tend to misconstrue everything about him (usually concluding by telling us that his forehead is too big).
I can assure you, I don't care about James' forehead and I think its crass to insult it. He can't help his looks like we can't. We are in no position to judge!

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Once again, no. She has to go to Dawson in order to feel sexually reaffirmed (odd to go to someone for sexual confirmation if you don’t feel sexually attracted to that person!). She does give out a bit because he didn’t seem to recognise her sexuality in Season 1, but he says he was an idiot, and affirms that she is growing in sexuality every day. That is again why she runs back to Dawson when Jack makes his confession. With him she feels that, yes, she is accepted and is found sexually attractive. Pacey found her sexual in season 1? Well, of course! Every heterosexual boy who watched season 1 found Joey sexually attractive! The season is about Dawson coming to the realisation that he loves her completely not just as a friend, and that this includes finding her sexually attractive. Pacey is a normal heterosexual boy and of course he tries his luck with Joey when given the chance! This doesn’t require any special bond between them. He accepts that ‘if you kissed me back you would have been thinking of someone else’ – ie, in this sexual situation, you would have been thinking of Dawson. I’m afraid I would project this forward – to the sexual relationship she has with Pacey in Season 4. She ‘ignores’ Pacey finding her sexually attractive in season 1 because she recognises it for what it is: a horny teenage boy trying it on. It isn’t significant. Even when they start going out she doesn’t say: Pacey, remember how you found me so attractive in season one, and I ignored how important this was for two years, but now I realise how significant it was! No, Pacey’s horny reaction to a hot girl taking her clothes off in his mirror is not important, except that when he asks Dawson’s permission (funny how everyone asks permission in this world for romantic relationships) it jolts Dawson into a realisation.
No one is arguing she wasn't obsessed with Dawson in season 1. Throughout season 1 Joey thinks she is ugly. She has awful self esteem not helped by Dawson's obliviousness. 'Dawson will always see me as the gawky little girl down the creek with band-aids on her knees and the one braid falling out. I don't know maybe that's how it's meant to be.' in the next scene Dawson says 'Pacey I know you're obsessed about with this little theory of yours, but the truth is I've never though of Joey in a romantic context. I've always thought of her as like a sister. I just don't think I could ever get past that. If Joey and I got together it would be, a little incestuous.'. Its more than idiocy.

Joey never finds out about the striptease incident so she can't connect that with why he kissed her and even so, she's complaining about not being found sexual. The entire thing was about sexuality and it the inverse of episode 4 when she is mooning over mystery man's over the shoulder 'throbbing neck muscles'. You say Double Date is never brought up again, that kiss is shown as PJos first in the finale montage. They don't cut it and act like it was nothing. I believe Kevin Williamson said they saw what was happening and 'put a lid on it'. And its shown as more than being a horny teen boy its preceeded by one of four scenes in season 1 where PJo show significant support to each other. Baby, when Joey can comfort him about his statutory rape being revealed when Dawson can't. Boyfriend where he turns up to take her out after she tells him about the baby keeping her up. Double Date where Pacey encourages Joey about her future as she reveals she needs financial help for college (Notice how Dawson shows a distinct lack of support in Beauty Contest in this area until Joey spells it out 'I would never laugh at you'. 'You just did'). Decisions were he takes his Dads car, drives her four hours, pays a prison guard $20 and likely got told off by his father so she can resolve her issue with her dad. Oh wait, they hated each other. I forgot!

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Regarding Aunt Gwen - you realise that she is a Joey/Dawson-shipper!
I do. I also realise that her analogy to her husband and the man she left him for was about Pacey-Joey-Dawson. That is why Joey asks her for advice and says what Gwen says 'It made me feel alive'.

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You seem to be mistaking a fairly normal sex life with a lack of sexuality in Dawson. Just because he isn’t jumping everyone’s bones like Pacey in Season 5 and 6 doesn’t mean he isn’t a fully grown up, sexual person. He has fewer opportunities, I’d suggest, because he isn’t as physically attractive as Pacey. I didn’t hear Jen complaining that in bed Dawson was asexual or pre-pubescent, or Joey, or Natasha. I’m happy he had the best sex of his life with Natasha. As a purely physical act, I’m sure it was good. He had the greatest night of his life, including sex, with Joey.
Hey, I've complained about walking STD Pacey have I not. Its not that. Its that Dawson doesn't take so many opportunities to do the deed 1-4. He was not waiting for Joey, no matter what he says or what guilt he tries to lay on her, he bought condoms to sleep with Eve and considered sleeping with Eve after declining Joey in the Season 3 premiere. He talks and talks and talks. His first time with Jen was practically an accident after he tells her she didn't find him sexually attractive. 'I'll prove you wrong' sex where Jen had to initiate it. If she hadn't he may never have slept with anyone!

Did Dawson ever talk about how good Joey was in bed. He's the only character to rank sex partners with Natasha coming in at number 1. Even in the finale, he's skipping out on dates. He's over worked Ok, but there is always an excuse somewhere for Dawson.

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The season will present Pacey with a serious problem: the lie that he has told himself, that Joey and Dawson’s relationship was ‘asexual’ or ‘prepubescent’ and ‘innocent’ (a weasel word if there ever was one) will be undermined by the next season of The Creek.
Again, Its hard to argue when you find direct quotes unreliable. Joey says her relationship with Dawson was innocent, not Pacey. She said it. And she slept with Dawson, Pacey knows that, he got the morning after earful.

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Those insecurities so on show at the start of the finale when he was having an affair with a married woman? Are they gone away? Because of a food fight, just before Joey went off again to reaffirm her soulmate relationship with Dawson? Season 3 of The Creek doesn’t happen. Unlike Season 1 of Dawson’s Creek, which was about Dawson choosing Joey, Season 1 of The Creek ends with a rewriting of the end of Season 3 of Dawson’s Creek (which had Joey choose Pacey over Dawson – at his suggestion). Therefore in The Creek, Joey chooses Dawson over Pacey in Season 1. Therefore, no Season 3 of Dawson’s since that has been resolved. And Joey is riveted. To her fictional fantasy character choosing Dawson. In the next season she’ll witness how these problems which kept them apart could have been resolved. It’s not looking good for Pacey – and I am genuinely sad for him, because he remains my favourite character on that show.
The insecurities are gone because they have grown up. Dawson and Joey haven't been a couple since they were 16. They end the series 25. If Joey really wanted Dawson she could have gone off to him in that 5 years but she didn't. And Joey has no obligation to get back together with Pacey. He tells her, if she wants Dawson then be with Dawson. She could have ran all the way back to New York. She didn't have to resume their relationship. Why would she throw herself into that drama again when she could just get another Christopher or Eddie or *insert meaningless pretentious writer here*? You are saying it yourself now, her relationship with Dawson has found its proper place. She is riveted to her 'fictional fantasy character choosing Dawson', not real Joey who can find fantasies entertaining and turn them off and go back to her actual life. That is what Dawson is working through too, working through the fantasy to get back to reality after, to his dismay, he lost sight of the real world.

Last edited by AsgardianJane; 03-08-2016 at 01:35 AM
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