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Old 03-06-2016, 01:04 PM
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Part 2, Don't go getting ahead of me!

Originally Posted by jarlath1 (View Post)
The writers didn’t do much to please Pacey/Joey fans in this season…apart from keeping Dawson and Joey apart for much of it for spurious reasons (having Dawson blame Joey for the death of his father was one of the lowest things the writers ever did to him). There was no ‘backtracking’ of the ‘Coda’ kiss. There was just no resolution of it (until a very bad season finale). If they did little to please Joey/Pacey fans, they did very little to please Dawson/Joey fans either. Putting Joey with Prof. Wilder! Getting Dawson and Jen back together (and then having them live together and then splitting up in the course of a few months…ridiculous!) Let’s all admit it – the final two seasons were (apart from a couple of episodes and a couple of characters here and there) a washout, with little to please either of the shippers.
The last two were pretty dire. I don't think Dawson and Joey were apart the whole season because of PJo. If that were the case wouldn't they have put in some PJo angst? I think a common complaint with 5 and 6 is that they didn't amount to anything. Wilder is an irrelevance, Charlie is going nowhere, Eddie kept coming back for some reason. I don't think there was any DJo or PJo significant development in either two seasons. It felt like using either in 5 and 6 was something they were forced to do. They had to deal with the fallout of Coda, it doesn't go anywhere. They need a DJo finale, just in case, only to do the same thing in season 6 when they get rid of it straight away. They had to do a PJo story before the series ended because that was too popular and wasn't being killed like they needed it to be. There was more character movement in the last episode, than in two seasons!

The Pacey line: ‘I remember everything’ was clearly meant to suggest (since he was in open competition with Dawson at this point) ‘and Dawson doesn’t’. It is a low blow, given the fact that Dawson actually knew Joey’s mother and cared about her, whereas Pacey and Joey didn’t even like each other when they were younger. Your suggestion that Pacey knows about Joey (better than...who?) is stretching things. That he figured out in Season 1 that Joey was in love with Dawson (not crushing on him) hardly demonstrates any great powers of perception. Everyone knew that she was in love with Dawson (including the dogs on the street), apart from Dawson. Everyone. Jen knew it. Grams knew it. Dawson’s parents knew it. Her father knew it (from prison no less). Bessie knew it. The ‘psychic’ woman in the Halloween episode knew it within a minute and a half. Everyone knows. Even Pacey. Joey tells us who knows her best: Dawson. She asks him to write that part of her college application for her (which Pacey is not particularly happy about).
If 'I remember everything' was meant to be about Dawson, surely we would have been shown a part where Dawson forgot something that was of meaning to Joey? Not everything is about Dawson, its more likely its to refer to what he says to her in 'Double Date', 'And I would have remembered if I listened when you talked to me'.

I never said 'better than'. Saying that Pacey has a connection with Joey doesn't mean any third person needs to be brought into it. In the words of Pacey Witter when Joey tries to do the exact same thing 'Right, 'cause god forbid I might just be talking about you and me right now.'. Pacey is written to know Joey is hooked on Dawson before Jen does, he's known since before the series started. Other examples, their heart to heart in Decisions where he uses his own problems to force her to do what she knows is right regarding her father. the earrings in Anti Prom as I said shows he knows her core values, 'Other Joey', her need to lose control in Clean and Sober and more. Pacey is the guy who says what Joey doesn't want to hear but she knows is true and part of the reason their banter works so well is that they understand what will get a rise out of the other without going too far. One of the more comedic ones, Pacey knowing Joey will relent and ditch school with him in 'Home Movies' but he 'thought she'd last at least 8 [seconds]'.

When Joey talks about who knows her best, what does she say? She talks about when she broke her leg, when her mother died etc... I'm talking about understanding a person. The difference between knowing what someone did and why they did it, the way they think.

And Pacey did know Lily Potter, Pacey, Joey and Dawson have been friends/frenemies since at least the age of 6. Joey was invited to Pacey's first boy-girl party. We hear Aunt Gwen talk of Pacey chasing Joey as a child. Mr Witter clearly knows Joey in the Season 2 finale but that is their first scene together. Gretchen also mentions the three of them in the past and how she thought Joey and Pacey would end up together but she's been absent at least 2 years at that point. To say Pacey didn't know Joey's mother is a stretch when Joey clearly knows his father and his home phone number in 'None of the Above'. Pacey even mentions how blind he was not to have noticed Joey was beautiful when he was a kid, we saw him find that out in Season 1. We never see anything of Pacey as a kid, not even in his own house, we just hear of it. He was always there though. Dawson says as much, he's heard Joey and Pacey argue (banter) nearly every day of his life.

I did hear the complaints from Pacey lovers about Season 5. I wasn’t particularly impressed with these complaints then because I didn’t hear these same fans complaining when Dawson and Andie had their characters assassinated to facilitate a Pacey/Joey pairing in Season 3. In any case, I didn’t think there was any attempt to destroy his character in Season 5. He did behave out-of-character, but as I said before they were all behaving out of character at various times through the series. For example, not once did I buy it that Pacey would sleep with a married woman as he does in the finale. It wouldn’t happen. Nonsense. That he slept with 7 girls before Audrey…ok, I think it’s a stretch but it doesn’t bother me. But he would never encourage someone to cheat on a marriage or get involved in that kind of triangle.
Andie definitely suffered in Season 3 but the alternative was her never coming back from the mental hospital at all. She was only ever meant to be temporary, just like Jack. Kevin Williamson knew that he was going to do PJo, not as endgame but that he would get there. He said it would have been Season 4 with him.

Dawson, well he attempted to murder someone and held Joey to a completely different standard to his best friend despite them doing the same thing but therein lies the drama. Originally, Pacey was meant to try and push Dawson into the rocks in the boat, DJo was going to reunite at the end of Show Me Love but obviously that was scrapped. I did sort of buy it though on Dawson's side. He always had only child syndrome, that was part of his character. It was extreme though.

I believe Tom Kapinos, when confronted with how Pacey was behaving in Season 5 he said 'Man's gotta eat' or something similar. They didn't know what to do with him. You probably won't like this but I always thought they should have kept Joey and Pacey together to mid-5. Do the comedy living together angle, get Pacey into Boston with a better excuse than 'I turned up on a boat so why not?', give him bearings and when they break up (because DRAMA!), reason to stay.

In Season 6, after she is dumped by Eddie, Joey tries to give Pacey another go. He’s kind of an interregnum thing for her, filling in time. I don’t need to reconcile anything here – Joey’s last words to her relationship with Pacey clear things up beautifully. The second attempt with Pacey was for obvious reasons from Joey’s point of view: let’s see what happens between us if Dawson is not there in the foreground reminding me of other possibilities. And she finds out what happens – she doesn’t feel it, as she explains, ‘even without Dawson’. That she could drop Pacey for Eddie has always been the hardest thing to explain for Pacey/Joey shippers. Usually Dawson is held to blame for Joey’s supposedly bad choices, but here Joey explicitly sets out that Dawson is not the cause of this break up. The relationship with Pacey just doesn’t feel right. All the other episodes you are quoting come from before this breakup. Connecting ‘honest drunk’ Joey kissing Dawson in Season 1 to ‘honest drunk’ Joey kissing Pacey is Season 6 is a stretch. She would have preferred kissing … Eddie, had he been there. Basically, Joey gives the relationship a second go to see would it work without Dawson, and she finds out that the answer is, no, it wouldn’t.
Joey doesn't let anything happen between them in Season 6. That is sort of the point. They are discussing getting back together and by Sex and Violence she seems on board. She's going to sleep with him after all. Then Eddie comes back, she tells him she's moved on, then she gets Promicide flashbacks and goes cold. The week after its like the Pacey thing never happened and she's arguing with Eddie about how she doesn't trust him like he's never left. Dawson isn't even raised as a factor in Season 6 for Joey and Pacey. He's just not relevant there.

The season 1 kiss and season 6 kiss are exactly the same. Pacey/Dawson talks to a semi coherent Joey who then lets her feelings out in a kiss. Katie even performs it in the same way, watch where her hand is in both kisses. Its hard to see in the S6 one but she cups their face and lands one on them. Clean and Sober even had deleted dialogue to explain that Joey wouldn't remember it the next morning. Pacey tells her what she did in 'Boyfriend' and she denies it because 'Dawson and I never had any fun'. Thus explaining why she doesn't remember kissing Pacey in Castaways. Those last 5 PJo eps were meant to have a 'greatest hits' feel about them. Castaways is full of them, the Wall of televisions, the dialogue after he kisses her is reminiscent of 'Double Date', instead of shaving they were meant to do an 'Anti Prom' dance where Joey brings up Prom and Pacey said 'I remember nothing'. Then you got the mini-mes and Joey contemplating her past and looking to the future with Pacey in 'That was Then' and of course Love Bites, Promicide part 2. Only this time, Joey self-sabotages.

Joey was definitely 'feeling it' in Sex and Violence, why was she so jealous? Why did she bang her head in Castaways when she sees the blonde with her hand on Pacey's leg? Which makes the Audrey thing even weirder. Joey even says in Castaways that its past time for her to be complaining about Pacey and other women then she goes on to complain about the blonde he wanted to hook up with. Suddenly she's Joey catching Jen and Pacey again about it.

In the PJo thread we've been discussing Joey's fear. Its mentioned a few times in the last eps of season 6. Pacey calls her out as afraid in Love Bites, Eddie then goes on to figure out she's afraid of really loving someone and that he's been blinded (again Pacey seeing through her when it takes everyone else much longer to figure out, Eddie and Joey's last fight is about going away for the summer and then coming back, she's afraid to take that leap again because of how her relationship with Pacey ended), she mentions her fear to Harley and about how she's not afraid with Eddie (presumably because she isn't as invested in him as Dawson and Pacey) her last speech is about not being scared any more while running away to Paris!

Last edited by AsgardianJane; 03-06-2016 at 01:22 PM
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