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StellaSlight · 03-29-2004, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Posted by AB :

There are civilian casualties, because the terrorists surround themselves with human shields. Even though the Israeli defence forces take great risks, often sending in ground forces and limiting their use of air power, etc, they can't save everyone.

But failing to be perfect in an impossible situation is very different from targetting civilians - or from hiding behind them.

So no, no reasonable person can say that the civilian casualties are Israel's fault. In specific incidents they may be able to suggest room for improvement of Israeli tactics, possibly even in the current case we're discussing (I don't think so, but I'm not a tactical expert). Morally, the fault lies with the terrorists both for Israeli and for Palestinian civilian casualties.

The conflation of reasonable error and of moral blame is a major logical fallacy, and one that is all too common.

Sure, blaming Israel for ALL the casualties in both part would be a mistake. But you guys are blaming Palestine for everything too, and I think it's another mistake one should not make, although it's easier to believe that all the population is made of terrorists.

Israel's politics might be one of counter-terrorism but the way I see it is that it's only a huge vicious circle that can't be broken by force, nor violence : you bomb my citizens, I shoot your civilians, and here we go again. Both parts have become fanatics to their cause, each blaming the other for the 'first move' ("It's their fault, they bombed us" / "It's their fault, they shot us"). It's getting tired, because 50 years later, one might forget who started it first. Eh, it's like the chicken and the egg, who came first?

Sure, I think they're mad in Palestine with their Intifada-thing and their sending children and woman bomb themselves in the first place. But history has shown 50 years of desperation on their part, and Israel's positions for the past years have not favorised an improvement in the situation. Am I trying to justify the bombings? No, I find them horrible and totally wrong. But I also think that Sharon's current politics have done anything but fueling the hatred between the Palestinians and the Israelis, which causes the vicious circle to go round again. Which brings me to the question of the Barrier that is being built, a very questionable point in Sharon's politics.

Sharon said that it was aimed at protecting Israel against the suicide-bombers. The wall might have been justified if it had stuck to the so-called green line dividing Israeli and Palestinian territory. But the fact that it extends far into Palestinian land suggests that its real purpose is the annexation of additional land for Israel. The Human Rights Commission report is just the latest to be critical of the security barrier. Last month the International Committee of the Red Cross said building it within occupied territory was in clear violation of international humanitarian law. From BBC :

Quote:

In a highly critical 13-page report presented to the UN Human Rights Commission, John Dugard (the UN's special rapporteur for the occupied territories) says the barrier has caused widespread destruction of Palestinian property and that the seizure of land to build it took place without due process of law.
Now that the wall is largely built, he says families have been divided and many are denied access to health and education.
The only beneficiaries of the barrier, the report says, are Israeli settlers, who are likely to gain land which has been seized from Palestinians.

Tell me, how can't the Palestinians not be infuriated by that? Sharon promised to dismantle Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip, only to rob them more of their territory with the Barrier.

Quote:

Posted by AB :

although I think Israel's desperation should be recognized. But the vast exaggerations are not helpful.

I think they're both desperate. But while Israel have support, weapons and a decent living condition with jobs and food, Palestine is impoverished, famished and slowly dying, only finding their salvation in fanatic religious beliefs that tell the people about a better life in Heaven for those who would destroy their enemies. They sure are not rationalizing things. So the 'vast exaggerations' you're talking about might be from our western point of view, but for Palestinians, a lost bullet that kills one of them, or a rocket that targeted one person but kills eight, is only another furthered conviction that Israel is the evil to kill. Or bomb, in that case.

That's the problem in the Israel/Palestine conflict. There's always someone to blame in both parts, and neither are willing to admit they're wrong. But Palestine is way more instable, becoming more and more fanatic every day. The killing of Yassin, although I can understand why Israel was so willing to perform this operation, did not improve things, and it's safe to say that it has even worsened the situation. Hamas found itself another leader and it has fueled more hatred in the Palestinian side to a level I did not think possible. Oh boy, peace won't come easily.

It's a delicate subject here, and it's so easy to be called 'anti-Israel'. Just for your information, I support neither of them. I'm for peace in that region of the world, and to that extent, I can't support Palestine's fanatic religious beliefs and I can't support Sharon's politics.