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JohannafromIHJ · 04-20-2004, 04:02 PM

My goodness, I missed a lot.

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Originally posted by: GrhmLz
Yes, apparently you have. But since you are considering converting back to christianity for the mere pleasure of watching me squirm before God (), maybe you might want to try praying to God for the wisdom to open your eyes so that you are not blinded. But if you don't want to, that is fine. You have free will.

1. I did not ask you for an answer, I asked another poster.

2. Your fundie hatred has done nothing but convince me to never go near the Christian God ever again.

3. You�re being childish, and your use of the roll-eye smiley (which most of us here agreed not to use in debate as it is obnoxious) only proves this. If you want to give up and go do something else, just say so, don�t resort to rolling your eyes and making mediocre jabs at my intelligence.

4. What I asked for was a passage in the bible where homosexuality is condemned. Since I have explained the fallacy of those passages where homosexuality is condemned, I simply assumed that there was some bit I�d managed to miss (though I seriously doubt it). Your un-Christian rudeness (�love thy neighbour�, remember that one? Or �be kind to strangers�?) is not at all necessary, nor was it asked for. Since you won�t listen (and blatantly ignore any biblical proof I put forward, waffling on about human degrees and translators instead of actually offering proof that the original translations of the Bible are correct), I figured I�d go for the more polite and less aggressive person.

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Well, to be more precise I referred to homosexual acts as sinful, perverted, and immoral. Not homosexuals. There is a difference but you appear to be so offended by the truth of God that you believe there is no seperation. Whatever. Hey, I didn't make the laws I'm just the messenger.

Your �truth�. And yes, I am offended, because you�re calling the love between honest, good people perverted. Some of us find that sort of bigotry unpleasant and react to it.

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People are seperate from their actions. That is why people have the ability to change behavioral patterns.

So you could go out tomorrow and fall in love with a woman? It�s all behaviour, right?

Then loving God is a choice and a �behavioural pattern� as well, right? And here I thought it was a calling.

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And you claim that it is too late for me? Why? If we assume that you are right, aren't you the same individual that claimed Jesus is suppose to forgive? In that case, it is never to late for me. Did I say it was too late for any of you? No I didn't.

You said �But you don�t get that and you never will� which is pretty damn close.

And I was referring to insulting/judging homosexuals. You�ve already done that on this thread, and it can�t be undone. Whether you look at it as

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bugs8476, you know me hun! Nasty ole' judgemental christian that preaches the word of God! Shame on me for even trying.

Yes, poor Christian. �Cause it�s okay to be offensive and say hurtful things if you hide behind religion, right? Funny though how it never works the other way around. You state your heartfelt opinion and it�s okay, because God is guiding you � I state mine and I need to open my heart to God, as if I�m not already spiritual and guided by the divine.

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I'm not assuming anything. It just always was and is God's law. There are other more direct sources (in addition to the bible) that would let you know that. So I just know. But, I think those sources are a bit above your understanding right now so I won't share.

[img]smilies/lol.gif[/img] In other words, your Christian University Bible class isn�t there yet. Trust me when I say it won�t go over my head; I speak two languages fluently, I�m translating a book about a culture completely different from mine, I�ve been a Mormon and a Protestant, I�ve gone to school (several, in fact), I�ve read the bible several times, I�ve read Hebrew mythology and studied it with a Jewish woman fluent in Hebrew, I�ve read the Quran, I�ve been to a hell of a lot of lectures and I�m quite intelligent.

You don�t have ***** but your own ingrained prejudice against homosexuality.

I hardly thin you�re in a position to tell me something connected to Christian mythology will go over my head, when you�ve failed to answer any of the Bible verses I used with anything beyond �OMG, translators suck. God hates homosexuality because he does!�. You�ve conveniently managed to dodge actually having to deal with what I�ve said by spouting prejudice instead of actual Biblical, or non-Biblical but still relevant, evidence.

So if you�ve got sources, bring them on. Either I�ll understand them or I won�t, in which case you�ll have won, right?

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Newflash! So do I! So I guess I'll continue to do the same.

I don�t doubt it.

I cannot believe you just used the word �newsflash� and the roll-eye smiley together. I feel like I�ve been dumped into the middle of Mallrats, but without the any of the fun bits.

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No. It's used to tell you that if you judge you shall be judged accordingly to the same actions you judge another for. It does not say don't judge.

I meant it, as in �the quote �judge not��, was used to tell you, as in �you, GrhmLz� not to judge.

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But if we assume that your interpretation of "judge, lest ye be judged is accurate, you have no right to tell me not to judge! Otherwise, you are declaring that you are in a position to cast judgement upon me judging others. Unless you are a hypocrite?

I�m not a Christian, I don�t adhere to the teachings or rules of the bible. For all you know, my religion forces me to cast judgement on you or I�ll spend my afterlife in the icy pits of Hel.

But aside from that, I�m hardly judging you. I�m trying to have a discussion with you about the Bible�s teaching on homosexuality, but so far you have neither refuted my evidence nor shown any of your own. I�m really getting quite bored, if I want some Roswell fangirl to snark at me I can just go ship Max/Lawnchair or something (if I could suffer to watch the show enough to be considered a shipper and fan, that is).

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Yes, because that is the way it is suppose to be. Or did that conveniently slip your memory during your nine full years of practicing Christianity?

Actually, since we had homosexuals in our church, we were taught to respect the sinner, not blast him and attack him. We were taught that we all had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and that it was our job to nurture that relationship and tend to our spirituality � not others�.

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They can't be my own desires when they are the word of God.

Prove that they are the word of God. And with scripture, or something like it, not �I feel it in my heart�. And not the passages I�ve already shown you and explained, not unless you in turn can explain how they should be translated and how this translation shows that homosexuality is a sin.

How can they not be your desires? You�re obviously picking and choosing what you want to follow when it comes to Christianity. You don�t like homosexuality, because you claim it�s God�s will, yet you preach � despite the Bible, which is the word of God, clearly stating that a woman should not. You think homosexuality is unnatural and therefore perverted, but you�re a fan of a show where the creators make money off portraying alien teenagers who don�t go to church, have pre-marital sex, divorce, lie, fight, have children out of wedlock and use unnatural powers. And you apparently ship two of the characters, but hate another coupling - is this not lust and hate and impure thoughts?

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Yeah, sort of what like is happening here.

I couldn�t agree more. You really need to stop doing that. Or, you know, fork over some of those sources that are above my understanding.

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No i am not. The word of God tells you what sin is and is not. I'm just repeating what is already said.

The word of God does not tell us that homosexuality is a sin, you do.

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Perhaps you should take a look at yourself. Maybe you are jumping to the conclusion that you are an authority on what being judgemental is?

You seem obsessed with the word �judgemental�, which leads me to believe I�ve hit home.

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Says the judge of the court!!!!!
Object all you want! So will I!

I�m sure you will. That�s what makes it so funny. You�re going to waste a hell of a lot of energy hating and disapproving of something that will inevitably happen. You only have one life (unless you believe in reincarnation, that is) � I suggest you make it about something more cheerful.

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Come on now? Is that the best you can do to launch an attack? I would have expected better from you since you at least try to appear like you know what you are talking about. This is one of the oldest tricks in the book. This is what one refers to as a ad hominen fallacy of logical reasoning in which one rejects or dismissses another's statement by attacking the speaker rather than the statement itself as evidence that the statement is false or his/her argument is weak (The Art of Reasoning by David Kelley.

Nice way of avoiding the issue. It still doesn�t change the fact that you�re idolising something which promotes Biblically immoral behaviour (not to mention how it blatantly goes against Creation with it�s aliens and whatnot) while condemning something else in the name of God. It�s called �Hypocrisy�, from The Art of Wankdom, by Life.

You said yourself a bit back that abortion is not condemned in the bible (there�s actually an abortion in it, in the OT), but Christians disapprove of it anyway and so on. Walking into people�s dreams and all the stuff those aliens to may not be directly forbidden in the bible (well, some of it is), but it�s quite obviously frowned upon by Christians anyway (due to older translations, but I shan�t get into that again) � so why�s it okay with magic, but not homosexuality?

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Ummm....NO! I think maybe you better have the fog cleared from your reading glasses. And if you don't have any yet, my advice is that you get some.

How is this relevant. I wear contact, in case you�re so curious. They don�t fog up.

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Although, let me enlighten you about where I remember you from. I had this debate with you before about the bible on the U.F.O. thread a while back.

ALIEN GIRL! [img]smilies/lol.gif[/img]

Haha, I remember you now. So you can hate homosexuality based on basically nothing, and then believe in Roswell-like aliens (which I�m sure is all mentioned in the bible, right where God creates another planet)? Seems a bit iffy to me.

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When did I say that I was against witchcraft? The bible speaks against witchcraft because it is refering to the practice of the black arts that abuses God's gifts because they are useed in unionship with the lower forces (the devil etc...whatever you want to call it). There are many that use what you call magic through God's gifts. The bible speaks of the gifts of prophecy and tongues etc...! It is actually not as segregated as you would like to believe it is.

I certainly know that. I practice witchcraft (Norse folkloric magic, actually, but still), so I�ve had to read up on it. The Bible orders it�s followers to put to death any woman who uses harmful spells (the word is m'khashepah, meaning �woman who uses harmful spells� or something along those lines), in other words, black magic. The bible also forbids (though it only seems to refer to Israelis) fortune-telling, contacting the dead, contacting spirits, knot-magic, snake-charming/enchantments.

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I think you are a little bit paranoid here seeing since you have come outright and accused me of saying things I never said or did. No wonder you have continuously twisted my words on this thread. You invent things that never occured.

Invent, no. I simply mistook you for someone else. It happens.

I hardly think you should talk about twisting someone�s words, as you�ve done nothing but that (well, that and avoid to defend your anti-homosexuality with actual Christian facts).

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Said the person who preaches against casting judgement.

no, I don�t. I preach against ignoring the rules of your religion. If your religion says �don�t judge�, don�t judge. If it says �Go around in a circle and call yourself Bob three times a day�, do that. Don�t just pick whatever you want from your religion and ignore the rest, and then expect people to respect you when you attack them.

This is why I said you follow your desires rather that your religion/God. You�re obviously fine with the idea of aliens and whatnot, but you chose not to accept homosexuality, which leads me to believe that you don�t WANT to accept homosexuality, whether God tells you to or not.

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And for the record, I don't follow a him or her! God is an omnipresent force that comprises the essence of both male and female qualities that exist within mankind.

Which is why I wrote him/her.

But the Bible does call God the Father several times, and the Mother only once or twice.

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I'll give you front row seats, okay? Just remember to invite me to yours? It should be interesting as well.

Sure as hell will.

God: Johanna, my righteous friend in arsekickinness, how�s things?
Johanna: Brillian, oh you most fabulous of all.
God: I�d like to set you up on a blind-date with my son Jesus, he could need someone like you in his life. Last time I let him out alone he got nailed to a cross.

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Originally posted by bugs8476
Well "Grhmlz" You have said it all " Keep preaching sista, keep preaching"
Here they come.....
bean up scottie.

Thank you for that enlightening answer to my request.

And it�s �beam me up�. You generally eat beans.

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That's funny. It wasn't a problem for me. I'm 25 and still haven't had sex because I have exercised self-control.

25 and still in college? Eek.

And it�s not self-control. You�re simply moving your lust for real men onto a fictional couple. It�s common modern psychology.

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I believe in God's law that fornication is part of sexual immorality and I don't want to committ fornication.

One more time: the word used for fornication originally refers to cult prostitutes, such as those that were common in the time of Jesus, Paul and the beginnings of Christianity.

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Just because most people in general don't have control when it comes to sex does not make it an excuse to do it.

But it makes them human.

I know how to exercise control. I don�t date, because I want to become a writer and translator. But fact remains that I am in control because I don�t put myself into a position where I�ll be tempted. However, I also know that my natural instincts will not keep me from reacting to those I am reacted to, whether it be a man on the street who�s gorgeous, or a man I find really fascinating. Thos things can�t be controlled. You can�t help thinking someone�s attractive. Same goes for homosexuals. I�m sure they could keep from having sex with people they find attractive, but they can�t stop the attraction itself.

But to expect homosexuals to abstain from sex for their entire lives just because you think it�s immoral, is kind of mean. It�s a proven fact that people who do not get to experience love and intimacy (yes, SEX) will develop psychological issues, and the worst case scenario is paedophilia (Catholic Priests, for example. For the most part the priests manage to substitute their need for a romantic relationship with devotion to God, but sometimes they develop disturbing needs). People who are deprived of sex and romance will either turn to extreme religion (fundamental Christinaity/Islam/Whatever, Scientologists, cults and so on) or some similar devotion. They�ll most likely also become very depressed.

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Really? Not according to other posters on this thread.
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Way to twist my word, alien girl. Gold star for you.

I was talking about the Bible�s opinion on humans and the Bible, not my own. I also said something about humans being essentially animals biologically. You implied that homosexuals are on the same level as animals socially, below other humans, and should therefore not be allowed to wed.

The other bit you quoted is about wolves � I assume they are still animals and have not lately evolved into something else?

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And in answer to dxylecis gril, no I have never gotten butterflies in my stomach just by seeing someone! There was never any reason for me to because I hadn't gotten to know the person yet!

Poor girl. That�s probably why you ship M/L though, right? I doubt you�d be so fervently invested in them if you didn�t feel something from watching them.

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Then congrats on being celebate for so long, not sure why but lack of offers springs to mind

Well, the quote �She is a virgin in a time when men will even turn to soft fruit for pleasure� springs to my mind (it�s from Absolutely Fabulous, and it�s freaking hysterical).

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Lack of offers? Wow, you are so witty! Score one for the kid that views "sex" as an "offer" instead of a union between a man and a woman who love each other.

Or, you know, a union between a homosexual male and a lesbian who have decided they love each other in order to please God.

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Well thats easy:
1)they were taught that this was the way to act
2)they saw the act take place
3)they just wanted to try something new, so they exprimented with it
They sure weren't born with, that's for sure..

1) A majority of homosexuals come from heterosexual homes. Many are disowned.

2). I don�t know about you, but I rarely stumbled onto homosexuals having sex. Your argument makes no sense. Who sees gay sex and becomes a homosexual because of it? I thought you were supposed to be educated? Or is the reason you�re still in college at 25 that they keep holding you back?

3). And then decided �Oh my God, this is so much better than heterosexual sex. I have to do this for the rest of my life! Maybe I�ll get lucky and have some anti-homosexuals make my life hell, as well!�

Arguing that homosexuality is not something you�re born with is incredibly ridiculous. It might have worked ten, twenty years ago, but not now. Homosexuals are born that way, as evidenced by medical science and their own life stories. Look at Hermaphrodites. A while back every Hermaphrodite born was usually turned into either a boy or a girl instead of being allowed to keep their double-sex, and most developed one way or another during puberty (this posed a problem for �boy� who all of a sudden started growing breasts and having periods). As they developed, they also developed a sexuality to match their true sex, for example, those who had been turned into �boys� but started going through a female puberty were attracted to boys, despite having been brought up as boys. By your logic, those raised as boys should have been attracted to girls, not boys, by the time puberty came around.

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Originally posted by bugs8476:
Homosexualitiy is not accepted....If that's what u are talking about....as for the bible, yes it is stated in the bible, and it is a wronful sin..

again, show me where it�s stated, because I�ve already gone through every place where the bible mentions homosexuality, and proved them to be wildly out of proportion.

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Please inform me were it states" Slavery's Acceptable" for my own reasons.

�And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation, he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her. And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters. If he take him another wife: her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish� (Exodus 21:7-10).

It�s common knowledge that slavery is a part of the biblical age and people were treated little cattle.

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Eating shellfish have nothing to do with what i was talking about, so stick to the topic Please.....

Eating shellfish is condemned in the same passage where homosexuality is condemned (in Leviticus).

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The THEORY of Evolution vs. the story of Creation from the bible. That is all it is is a theory. Science is not 100% positive that man evolved from Apes anymore than it can prove the story of creation.

Many parts of the theory of evolution has been proven, just as with the theory of gravity.

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Science subscribes to the Big Bang THEORY rather than God creating the world in seven days. Once again, a theory and nothing more. They can't prove for a fact that this did or didn't happen.

Nor can you prove the existence of God. And assuming all scientists subscribe to the Big Bang theory proves how little you know about the subject.

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2. Religion is a big thing to some people, but some people can't take it mentally, so if gay marraiges come about, it is agaisnt the word of god....Then you have people killing gay people who are married.

How nice of you to assume that Christianity is the only religion.

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3. There will be less controll in the government, because the public and the world will break out to do what they please
This may seem like a small deal to you, but if you think about the whole picture, it is an effect on the government, and our socitey. Religion will be the cause of this chaos, because the word of god was broken.

This is ludicrous. It�s the same bull they tried to pull when trying to keep women from being allowed to vote and interracial marriages, and black people�s rights.

Homosexuals get married here (though it�s called �a registered partnership� legally, it�s identical to marriage and is called marriage), yet I don�t see society unravelling before me. In fact, our children are healthy and happy and do well in school, people work as usual and healthcare is rather excellent for the most part. No riots in the streets yet (except when Bush gets here).

And here�s the best part: no one gives a *****.

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The gov't does what is wants, when it wants right now. But in a couple of years we will soon have, our public society doing what they want...Trust me, one thing leads to another....I know athiest people don't believe in god, but the word of god was broken, means alot to the people who do believe it....Homosexualitiy will spread chaos between laws to religion.....Face it were it the End Times.....But im sure you want me to explian that too huh.....

Oh Lordy, more End Times drivel. As a European you just sound fanatical when you bring up stuff like that, so it�s really not the right way to go about �enlightening us�.

Also, could you please perhaps show us a bit of consideration and spell check before posting?

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Originally posted by mh67511:
<STRONG>Mainly, I don't want my future children learning in school that it's ok to be gay and that gay marriage is fine. I don't agree with this and don't want the public school teaching things the directly conflict with my beliefs. </STRONG>

Simple answer: home school.

You have no right to demand society be run by your ideals. Schools should teach that one can believe whatever they want, and to respect others. If you have a problem with that, you can home school your children. Or move to Egypt.

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I believe that homosexuality is a sin and people choose to give in to this sin.

why do you believe it�s a sin?

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don't hate gay people, nor am I on a crusade to rid the world of gay people.

Just gay people�s rights.

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I don't want my children to be told that it is homophobic if you believe that being gay is a sin.

It is, though. And if you�re so keen to not be seen as a homophobic, obviously you have feelings that clash with your religious ideals, and perhaps you should explore them and analyze them instead of hiding them.

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You wouldn't want them teaching in school that "Jesus is the only way to heaven" and nor would I because I don't think schools have any place to be teaching stuff like that. That is one of my main concerns.

How is �Respect gay people, they�re not bad people� equal to �Obey the Lord Jesus Christ or you�ll burn in Hell�? Do you think schools shouldn�t teach equality, or women�s rights, or speak against racism?

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I find it interesting when Jesus talks about divorce on the Sermon the Mount. He doesn't talk about what a "person divorces a person," a "spouse divorces their spouse," or a "man divorces his huband." He talks about when "one divorces his wife." Cleary Jesus is talking about marriage between a man and a woman. Divorce is the opposite of marriage, so if Jesus felt gay marriage was acceptable, why did he not mention gay divorce.

Because gay people did not marry back then. Homosexuality was seen as pleasurable and beautiful, but not useful in any other way, since there would come no children from the union. Paul (I think) also states that people should marry if they must have sex, but it�s better to stay unwed and never have sex at all. This mostly comes from the fact that there were no DNA tests and there�d be a hell of a lot of bastard children around if people didn�t marry and produce children within a marriage.

But the concept of marriage has changed over the last 2000 years. Not it�s something supported by the state and entered into by people of all kinds of religions, not simply a Christian matter anymore.

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Also, just becase something is not listed in the 10 Commandments doesn't mean it is not a sin.

It is a basic rule that all sins lead back to the 10 commandments though.

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remember how they say to "honor thy father and mother"?

Because most people have a father and a mother? As far as I know that�s how it works � men and women make babies.

But just because you should honour your father and mother, it doesn�t mean you shouldn�t also honour your second mummy and dad�s gay lover.

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I also see lots of talk about 'love.' How does not allowing gay marriage prevent a gay couple from loving each other?

It prevents them from feeling equal. How about we disallow heterosexual marriages and see how long Christians enjoy that, not being allowed to procreate out of wedlock and all. After all, it�s about love, not marriages!

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Originally posted by GrhmLz:
<STRONG> I was taught that God is love too! But God is also a vengeful God! That is why God destroyed the Earth and Noah built the ark under God's guidance.</STRONG>

And then he changed his mind about it and created the rainbow as a sign of union between man and God. Not so vengeful after all.

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Why not? People are already being stubborn and backwards by trying to push for gay marriage when it is wrong. Riots and demonstrations can definitely happen.

Yes, because Fundamental Christians have it into their head that they are the law. It�s the FUNDIES who demonstrate gays, it�s the FUNDIES who riot and act like bastards. So let�s outlaw fundamental Christianity instead and we�ll avoid any riots and demonstrations AND give homosexuals their rights. It�s not homosexual people�s job to suffer so people with your opinions won�t go out and destroy society in protest. If fundies CHOSE to go out and riot and protest, they do so by their own free will, not because gay marriage forced them to.

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Homosexuality is breaking God's law, which is not a BELIEF, but is actually a "Spritual Fact".

Then it�s also a �spiritual fact� that the world is coming to an end because some people claim an Incan Goddess will soon fly through it to scourge it from evil and let it be reborn. Hey, as long as it�s spiritual, it�s a fact! Or that Oden will lead the other God�s into battle when the Life Tree Yggdrasil dies and Ragnarok ensues, and that Balder will be born again into the world to rule over it together with the few who survive.