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Originally Posted by Sugz
I agree that in season 2 Andie wouldve never done the things she'd done in season 3 but then again what happened to her between seasons 2 and 3? She went into a mental institution! If thats not grounds for a change in personality I dont know what is. And I dont even really intend on getting into evil Dawson in season 3, what he did was over the top at times but there's no doubt in my mind that in earlier seasons he showed glimmers of his personality in season 3 and he certainly had it in him to throw temper tantrums and get jealous. Ive always felt that way and in no way do I think they completely altered Dawsons personlity to make him the bad guy, they shed him in a bad light, but I do think Dawson had it in him to do the things he did. Just look at season 1, 2, even early season 3 when he got physically and verbally abusvie to Pacey.
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Possible and credible are two different things.
And if Stupin himself (in season3 DVDs) comment said that they made the wrong choice in making her cheating on Pacey ,that it was a bit out of Andie's character and that she never totally recovered from that I think it can be true.
And even if Dawson had his flaws during the previous seasons. Nothing can be compared to his behaviour in season 3. If you tell me that at times he was sellfish and talked to much I'm right with you. But you have also to admit that he was always the first one to make amends after. The few times in which he offended Pacey in season 1 and 2 he always went to him to apologise.
And physical abuse?? Please. It was always Pacey who punched Dawson first. Dawson just reacted.
None will ever take it out of my mind that they did what they did to Andie and to Dawson just to make the whole PJ situation seem better and right.
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Originally Posted by Sugz
Meanwhile, regarding Castaways, obviously the writers wanted to go down the Pacey and Joey route again, you cant blame them for that aftert going down the DJ road countless times, so they wanted to give Pacey and Joey another go. Why is it so hard to believe that two people can get stuck in a situation together that makes them really notice one another again? Especially after you were in love with that person once upon a time? Sure, Castaways was contrived, they were trapped in a KMart for heavens sake, but its a teenage drama! It's not as if they were just going to hang out on the couch watching TV and realize they were in love again. YOu have to keep in mind the fact that this is a television show, they're going to create some drama to facilitate things, it has to be exciting. I think thats a lot different from completely removing a character from an episode in order to facilitate a storyline, like I said, there's something wrong with that storyline in that case.
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I do keep in mind that. I just find funny how you always find a way to justify the most wierd PJ situations and find totally lame or impossible the DJ ones.
Because let's face it. Coda had a longer build up than Castaways. But still two people closed in KMart are credible and fine, while two frist lovers who never completely let go of each other and were ONCE UPON A TIME in love couldn't talk about their past as friends and lovers before getting separte ways to go to college. I think that in both cases they did what they could to bring back the couple of the moment. That's what I was meaning.
Weird scenarios weren't only about DJ but also about PJ and the other couples.
And as I said before I found PJ's break up and Pacey sailing away credible and built up for many episodes.You don't. Fine.
We can have different opinions...and thank God.
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Originally Posted by Sugz
To me, absolutely. Not the idea they were going for in itself. Having Dawson and Joey kiss inthe finale wouldve been fine. But look at the episode as a whole, it was so silly. They sat in Dawsons room and packed and talked about their past. Not only is that a huge snore of a finale but it was so over the top. Joeys most memorable moment was kissing Dawson? Come on! What about when your nephew was born or when your mom died or hey, remember when your dad went to prison or when you got into Worthington? They couldve incorporated other stories into it. Maybe had Pacey leave in that episode or giving Jack and Jen something to work with other than making pushing Dawson and Joey together. Season 4 was not the best season for Dawson and Joey, regardless of what little sparks of jealousy we may have seen they BARELY had a friendship and suddenly inthe last episode they're right back to being best buds? So forced. I think Tom just really overdid himself in Coda and it carried on to season 5 and lo and behold, none of it worked out. But this is just my opinion. Im sure as a Dawson and Joey fan you loved every second of it. But from the viewpoint of a non DJ fan or evern a casual fan, that was probably the most hysterically forced/boring finale there ever was.
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I did love it and I didn't found it fake at all.
DJ weren't on best terms in first half of the season ,but, as it was made clear more than once, they still considered the other a friend,a best friend and a first love.
It wasn't like they were completely out of each other's lives. They still tried more than once to get along again. Sure, it was difficult at first, but in the second part of the season they really did become closer and slowly friends again.
There were still sore points, but they did overcame their problems in the end.
Theri bond or their feelings weren't in discussion. Just think about the whole lending money moment or the "You'll always have a piece of my heart" speech.
They were missing each other, but they had to deal with their own feelings and with the difficult situation first. Otherwise it wouldn't have been credible I guess. I could never imagine Dawson being suddenly perfeclty fine with PJ at their return.
CODA was en episode incentred on the main character: Dawson.
He was leaving and starting college.
How were his friends feeling about this?
What is there of so much impossible or unbelievable ?To me Nothing.
Jack and Jen had grown very close to him during the last year so their fluffy actions and speeches sound absolutely realistic to me. Jack and Dawson had talked other times about his situation with Joey. It wasn't like Jack was pushing him toward her. He just knew how he was feeling and tried to make him confide.
The same is for Jen. I think she was always super partes in this awful triangle. She prefectly knew what Dawson meant to Joey. She always knew from season 1.
I didn't feel like Jen and Jack were talking about the romantic aspect of DJ anyhow, but just about their bond. And DJ were always bonded to me. Even in season 4.
Even if Joey was in love with Pacey she was missing her freindship with Dawson. In fact she treid to mend it more then once. And in the end they did mended it.
DJ seemed just fine after Four Stories. It didn't happen all at once in Coda. Look at Promecide,look at the Gradution or at the end of Separation Anxiety etc.
They were friends again.
Their talk in Dawsons' bedroom was a goodbye speech. And after all they had been trough together, I think that that speech was really really realistic.
Plus how many times did she remarke during the first three seasons how important Dawson was to her or how much their romance meant to her? I don't think that the comment about the kiss was so fake. Not at all.
I watched that episode with my mom the first time. She was a PJer and she didn't find it fake. She actually loves the episode as much as I do. So you can't generalize.
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Originally Posted by Sugz
I cant comperhend this, it seems like the biggest copout excuse in the world to me. They couldnt be together because they didnt know where one began and the other ended?! Joey didnt know who she really was? What does that even mean. THe girl is 16 years old, relationships are not that complicated at that age. You hold hands and see movies, you don thave to differentiate each others SOULS. its really not that difficult and if it IS that difficult, maybe you shouldnt be doing it!
Meanwhile I think you really overestimate Dawson and Joey. Yes, in the first maybe 2 seasons Joey and Dawson were pretty much bound together. They were together always they knew each other very well but in late season 2 and from season 3 on, this was NOT the case. THere are even a few instances where Dawson admitted he didnt really know Joey anymore and that fact was obvious in later seasons when they went long stretches without even talking. I know that season 1 was probably the best season for Dawson and Joey, when they were friends, but dont drag that dynamic they had into later seasons because it wasnt there anymore, they were hardly friends at some points and certainly didnt really know each other anymore. .
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Well ,since Tom Kapinos and Berlanti and others said that they were soul mates but when you're so young is difficult to sustain a relationship llike that so they had to explore other relationships before to possibly come back to each other,I don't understand how it is such a lame excuse.
If even some writers did see things in the way I do, it shouldn't have been so impossible.
I may overstimate them but I think that you understimate the DJ romance and bond a lot.
Don't you think that when you're 16 in the middle of the growing up process,are confused,have a very difficult past behind and have lived in such a huge symbiosis with your best friend ,it could be a little scary and also confusing being in a romantic relationship with him and at the same time understand who you really are and what you really want?
As Joey herself said,for the most of the time she was just focused on getting together with Dawson,she was focused on him,his dreams etc, but not on her future or herself.
It was simply too much for her ,at that age, to handle and she needed to step back a little and find her way alone before of being with him.
And I do understand her. She was so closed to Dawson and in such a symbiosis with him that she really didn't know anymore what it was that Dawson wanted and what she wanted.Even if she loved Dawson she had to know who she was first or she would've just be dependent on him. What if Dawson had left her? SHe would've had nothing.
Maybe it's lame to you but Joey was always a very complicated,confused,scared and problematic character so I can see her behaviour.
And I also don't think that in the end DJ weren't friends anymore. They spent time apart but PJ spent more time apart then them.
How many times did PJ really talk in season 5?I mean seriously talk?Not so many.
DJ had their times on their own,but in the end they always found a way to mend their relationship and overcame their problems if not as a couple as friends.
And their bond and frienship stayed strong despite the ups and downs.
Just look at Goodbye YELLOW Brick Road and JOEY POTTER AND CAPESIDE REDAMPTION. No matter how much time they had spent apart ( and anyway they stayed apart,really apart only in season 6) they could still understand each other,talk and feel a bond. They weren't certainly strangers.
Even in the series finale the first person Joey goes to talk to is Dawson.
If he had been such a stranger to her she wouldn't have felt the need to go to him first.
Sure the growing up process torn them apart at times,but it's normal. It happens.But despite that their bond was still there.
I dont' think that PJ had such a great communication after season 4 and the few episodes of season 6 reunion. They didn't seem to have talked to each other for ages in the series finale as every one else except for Jack and Jen maybe.